Why is 9mm great for people and not bears?

[DocSavage]

I'm not a hunter nor do I hike in the woods but for defence against 2 or 4 legged predators 357 mag minimum,41,44 mag 45 Colt or 45r Casull even better. I agree about how human react to being shot as opposed to wildlife. Humans being shot "OMG I've been shot" ,wildlife something has stung me I'll just move away from the source of the sting.

[tbx-4]

Here's an interesting video on a 9x19 gun... its the Ruger LCR 9 revolver... This guy does some real world no nonsense tests.



How about .45 ACP on bears, humm?

[Texas by God]

I'm not a hunter nor do I hike in the woods but for defence against 2 or 4 legged predators 357 mag minimum,41,44 mag 45 Colt or 45r Casull even better. I agree about how human react to being shot as opposed to wildlife. Humans being shot "OMG I've been shot" ,wildlife something has stung me I'll just move away from the source of the sting.

True. Fringe hit coyotes will bite at the wound as if to kill the wasp that just stung them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All this talk about 9MM handguns is boring, Previously I considered .44 Spec or Mag as minimum bear deterrent, however I have recently concluded that effective Bear Defense starts at 12 ga. Slugs at 1300 fps + and goes right up from there. No need to shoot twice.

After working out the TKO of 12 ga slugs at various speeds I found that they compare favorably with most large caliber rifles, and slugs at 1600 fps (TKO of 73) exceed even the .458 Win Mag.(TKO of 70) A 12 ga Pump Shotgun would now be my first choice!

For comparison a 147 gr 9MM bullet at 1000 fps = TKO of 7.5 ! Hardly worth mentioning!

I am going to my third Tactical Shotgun Class next week and will be vicious when I return with more knowledge on how to effectively use said shotgun to its fullest.

Maybe a 9MM pistol is better than nothing, but if you know where you are going you can easily plan ahead, and a 9MM anything would not be on my list.

Randy

[RogerDat]

Most intruders leave without being shot, the round being loaded or a declaration of I'm armed and will shoot cause vast majority of intruders to "self deport". Of the tiny percentage that stay to be shot at most are not hit, yet they flee from gun fire. So a tiny majority of a tiny percentage are shot at and a very small percentage of those get hit. Homeowners it seems don't do their best shooting in their underwear or PJ's but again those that get hit also tend to flee the scene because of those hit only a tiny percentage die. If shot placement is critical doing it amped up on adrenalin after waking up from a sound sleep in you boxer shorts seems to be something you want to avoid for accuracy.

So it seems shooting people who are breaking in doesn't need to end in a fatality to be a success. Bears on the other hand if they attack it seems to me they generally do some mauling. Shot or not shot. Once they decide to "go" they just don't stop. They eat stuff that fights back, they fight each other which has to hurt so attacking you the "pain" I would think isn't unexpected or likely to be a deterrent. They have to die or at least feel hurt enough that they consider themselves to be losing a fight. Or win by mauling you sufficiently that they figure they can come back and eat you at their leisure, or no longer a threat, or never going to intrude on their "alone time" again having learned your lesson.

I noticed in the accounts of documented cases the range tended to be short the action fast and the bears could take multiple hits from just about any handgun. To me this argues for a .357 mag preferably with 8 shots. Revolvers are very reliable. I also think revolvers tend to encourage measured and aimed rate of fire. Not that all shooters of auto loaders fail to train to do aimed fire I just think it might be easier for a person facing a freight train of fur with teeth to do a mag dump with a 9mm where a 357 or 41 or 44 will by their nature tend to slow down the rate of fire. Some good and some bad there. If you really need that rate of fire you need the auto loader. If the rate of fire leaves you with a lightly wounded and pissed off bear with no bullets left you needed to slow down but it's too late now.

[tazman]

A lot of information and opinions in this thread. I was expecting that.
I have no direct experience with bears of any kind. I really don't have any desire to have such.
If I am ever forced to go into country where there are a good supply of large bears who might possibly like to have my sorry backside for lunch, I will be carrying something a whole lot more powerful than a 9mm. I kind of like my backside where it is.
I am unlikely to ever face that situation since I can no longer hike long distances or in very rough country. The only possibility would be a bear escaping from a zoo in the area. I don't really feel the need to prepare for that.
I do hunt squirrels and rabbits on my brother in law's farm. There have been several sightings of cougar in that area and I have seen one dead cougar up close on the next farm over. They normally don't pose the problem a bear would. I still carry a 357 mag when I am there in the back of the farm.

[JBinMN]

Sometimes, even Bear Spray is not as useful as it is presented, even though it seems it "finally" worked in the situation described in the article.

https://www.cdapress.com/local_news/...ana_wilderness

One 'takeaway" is whether or not, regardless of what you use, can you deploy your defense quickly & effectively when it is needed.

Folks can draw their own conclusions from what they can get informed about, in regard to wildlife attacking humans.

I, personally, am gonna the do the best I can, regardless of what I have, be it a rock, club, a sharp stick/spear, a firearm or a howitzer, etc, or even my own physical abilities to try to prevent more issues.. That is gonna depend on , "WHAT I have with me." & "What is attacking me.".

If all I have is a 9mm, for man or beast, then that is what I have & I will use it. If I can prepare for "worst case scenario", then I will choose something more appropriate, IMO, to deal with such issues.

Here is a great time to offer the acronym/phrase,"YMMV", or "Your MIleage May Vary". Since everyone has different abilities in handling issues & what is available for defense.

The, OP, asked, "Why is 9mm great for people & not bears", and personally, I think the answer has already been answered in these last 3 pages. If not, then may I suggest someone go out & do some actual testing and get back with us on the results... Otherwise, like the old commercial about the Owl & the Tootsie pop, with how many licks does it take to finish one... And the answer provided then...

" The World may never know..."

[Idaho45guy]

Sometimes, even Bear Spray is not as useful as it is presented, even though it seems it "finally" worked in the situation described in the article.

https://www.cdapress.com/local_news/...ana_wilderness

One 'takeaway" is whether or not, regardless of what you use, can you deploy your defense quickly & effectively when it is needed.

Folks can draw their own conclusions from what they can get informed about, in regard to wildlife attacking humans.

I, personally, am gonna the do the best I can, regardless of what I have, be it a rock, club, a sharp stick/spear, a firearm or a howitzer, etc, or even my own physical abilities to try to prevent more issues.. That is gonna depend on , "WHAT I have with me." & "What is attacking me.".

If all I have is a 9mm, for man or beast, then that is what I have & I will use it. If I can prepare for "worst case scenario", then I will choose something more appropriate, IMO, to deal with such issues.

Here is a great time to offer the acronym/phrase,"YMMV", or "Your MIleage May Vary". Since everyone has different abilities in handling issues & what is available for defense.

The, OP, asked, "Why is 9mm great for people & not bears", and personally, I think the answer has already been answered in these last 3 pages. If not, then may I suggest someone go out & do some actual testing and get back with us on the results... Otherwise, like the old commercial about the Owl & the Tootsie pop, with how many licks does it take to finish one... And the answer provided then...

" The World may never know..."

From the article you cited...

"We walked three steps and there was a narrow road and boom, that's where we saw the two bears," Legasa said.

The youngling reared up and growled, then made way for the mama bear to charge.

"I put my arms in front of me. I had my bow in one hand and had my arm out. She tried to get me into a bear hug headlock," Legasa said. "She grabbed onto my arm and had it in her mouth. I was knocked over on my butt and at that point I was kicking and screaming trying to move her away."

Gibson blasted her with bear spray, spraying Legasa twice in the process.

"My eye was covered in blood," Legasa said, telling his story over the phone from his room in Bozeman Health Deaconess Hospital on Sunday.

Legasa said he was finally able to get to his spray as the bear moved toward Gibson, but he couldn't see anything and sprayed himself a third time. Gibson unleashed more spray on the bear, which finally retreated.

"It was a pretty intense couple of minutes of not knowing what happened," Legasa said. "At one point I had my face in the bushes because there was snow on them... I was thinking, 'I can't see a thing and this could be it.'"

That's an interesting aspect of bear spray vs. pistol for bear defense. Would the buddy have accidentally shot his friend if he used a pistol? Twice? And would the victim have also shot himself? Not likely, since he was blinded by his friend's bear spray, he couldn't tell which way the can was pointing when he deployed it. You can surely tell which way a pistol is pointing even when blinded.

Anyway, more of a bear spray vs. firearm observation...

[Idaho45guy]

I also wanted to come clean regarding my original post.

It was not offered as a sincere question as to if the 9mm was an effective round against bears. It was to point out the fact that most black bears in North America weigh the same as the adult American male. Factor in heavy clothing and influence of drugs and you have a rebuttal to the observation that the 9mm is just as good as larger calibers in incapacitating an attacker.

It was an attempt to get those that vigorously defend the 9mm (often using the "modern bullet design" argument) to realize their hypocrisy in not recommending it for woods carry.

I carry a .40 S&W with 10 Hornady 165gr Critical Defense rounds as my CCW around town. I have supreme confidence that it will stop a human threat. It would also work just fine against wolves and cougars. However, for woods carry, I have a 10mm with 200gr hard cast boolits. My woods carbine holds 9 rounds of .450 Bushmaster. Either of those are marginal against Grizzly bears but more than adequate for the cougars, wolves, black bears, and drunk white trash I commonly run across in the woods.

Suffice to say that I have never had to shoot a threatening animal in nearly 40 years of hiking/hunting/off-roading in the Idaho backcountry. And I have never encountered a Grizzly. All black bears and cougars have retreated at the mere sighting of me. However, this past summer, I had a wolf come and investigate my camp and leave a pile of scat 100yds away. The lever-action .45 Colt carbine I had at the time was a great comfort when the sun went down.

[RogerDat]

So in effect the OP was just saying 9mm isn't good for bears or human attackers? I disagree. Humans seem to have an aversion to being shot, even with the lowly .22 rim fire. Bears may have a whole different attitude. With the heft to back that attitude up.

[Idaho45guy]

So in effect the OP was just saying 9mm isn't good for bears or human attackers?

No idea how you are getting that conclusion when TWICE in this thread I stated pretty clearly that I questioned the latest view that 9mm IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE as larger calibers in stopping an attacker...

I keep reading how 9mm is just as effective as a self-defense round as the .40 S&W and .45 acp.

[Idaho45guy]

And the second time I clearly stated that I thought the larger calibers were more effective than 9mm...

Factor in heavy clothing and influence of drugs and you have a rebuttal to the observation that the 9mm is just as good as larger calibers in incapacitating an attacker.

Nowhere did I say it was not good for self defense against humans. It is the smallest caliber I would consider for a self-defense round against humans and I would never consider it for self-defense against larger predators.

[JBinMN]

Idaho45guy,

I got the idea that you did not understand what I was saying in my post earlier so I am going to try to clarify it.

In my post #67 above, about the bear spray and the accompanying article included, I was trying to point out that it seems that not all "defenses" work all of the time, and that while bear spray is supposed to work on bears "effectively", there is a chance that it will not be effective for one reason or another, just as there is a chance that a firearm may not be effective for one reason or another, even if it is a 9mm, or larger than a 9mm in its' "knockdown power".

( An earlier post with a link about bear attacks & firearms used, reinforces this)

Thus, even though bear spray "can possibly" work to prevent or stop a bear attack, there are times where it might not be enough,
just the same as a 9mm or larger firearm "can possibly" work to prevent or stop a bear attack, there are times where the firearm might not be enough.

That was all I was saying in regard to the 9mm & bears in that particular post.

The rest of that post was my opinion on what I might do to prevent/stop such an attack using whatever means I had to do so, as well as saying that until some sort of verifiable "realtime" tests are done, we will likely not know the answer to your proposed question from the OP.

I hope my clarification here is enough, as I don't think I can explain it any better than I just tried to do.

No offence or harm was intended by any of my posts here.

[CJR]

I have some final comments on black bears.
1. When one does a literature search on"black bears killing people", we find black bears kill more people than all the other bears combined.
2. My observations, over the years, seem to show that smaller black bears tend to run off while large black bears slowly walk away and tend to be more aggressive. Two(2) of my hunting camp buddies were both chased, on separate occasions, by black bears in bow season and they fortunately got away. Another member of our hunting camp had one small black bear crawl up to him in his tree stand and he had to continually kick him in the head to get him to back down the tree.
3. The newspapers, nationwide, have shown some incidents of black bears breaking into homes with people in them screaming at the black bear. If you haven't seen or read these black bear stories; you're living on Mars.
4. Black bears tend to have better scent detection than deer.
5. A couple of years ago, three (3) Pacific Northwest hunters had been "dry-camp(no water)" hunting in a remote area for a number of days and , as all hunters know, were very "ripe" with body odor. During one night, one hunter felt something in his hair and jumped up, turned, drew his revolver and shot a black bear which then climbed a tree and was finished with a rifle. What's interesting to me is this. That black bear very easily scented those three (3) "ripe hunters", waited for darkness, crept closer to the one hunter, and tried to crush his skull to make a "silent kill" and then drag his body away to eat him.

I've personally been at "arms-length" from black bears who did not run off but stood their ground. I respect them very, very much. Likewise, I'm here to tell you that if you look like "food" to them you will be eaten. Next time before you think about carrying that 9MM in black bear country, place that 9mm round next to a 44 Magnum 250g.Keith round for comparison. For me, the caliber choice is pretty obvious.

Best regards,

CJR

[Lloyd Smale]

ill put it this way. Ive seen my mother chasing a black bear off her back deck with a broom. I don't think shed be stupid enough to do that with a grizzly bear. I live where there are a lot of black bears. For the most part you don't even see them when walking in the woods because they hear you before you hear them and are long gone fast. Yes you could possibly get in a situation with one. Id bet most bear attacks are in the spring when cubs are with them. Probably because the cubs aren't that afraid and don't run and the sow stays to protect them. My experiences are just the opposite of yours. Ive been up close and personal a few times and just yelling had the bears running faster then a freight train. I did have a buddy who like your experience was in a bow blind (hunting for bear with a bow) when a bear (about 200lb) climbed up and tried to join him. When it got up level to him he yelled (he admitted he was panicked) the bear leaped off the tree 15 feet in the air and was gone in a flash. Don't know which of them was so scared. Had another buddy deer hunting in a scaffold that had a bear climb up the tree he was on. He had a redhawk on a tether because he had been seeing more bear then deer. He panicked drew the gun and dropped it. The bear saw the gun falling and again jumped and ran for cover. Like I said lots of bear up here. Its pretty hard to find someone that hasn't at one time or another had one in his yard. I had only one in my yard that stood its ground. It was a bear that was big but just to skinny and I knew something was wrong. I didn't have a gun and kind of walked slowly away. After that that year I carried a gun in the yard. I wasn't but about two weeks later that he returned and again wouldn't be chased away so I shot it. Come to find out someone had shot him in the but with fine shot and it was all infected and he was sick and probably hungry. Im not dumb enough to say there perfectly safe but if your scared of black bear youd best stay in the house when it rains because theres probably more of a chance of getting struck by lightning then getting attacked by a black bear and surely don't drive because theres many times more people killed by drunk drivers then killed by black bear.

I have some final comments on black bears.
1. When one does a literature search on"black bears killing people", we find black bears kill more people than all the other bears combined.
2. My observations, over the years, seem to show that smaller black bears tend to run off while large black bears slowly walk away and tend to be more aggressive. Two(2) of my hunting camp buddies were both chased, on separate occasions, by black bears in bow season and they fortunately got away. Another member of our hunting camp had one small black bear crawl up to him in his tree stand and he had to continually kick him in the head to get him to back down the tree.
3. The newspapers, nationwide, have shown some incidents of black bears breaking into homes with people in them screaming at the black bear. If you haven't seen or read these black bear stories; you're living on Mars.
4. Black bears tend to have better scent detection than deer.
5. A couple of years ago, three (3) Pacific Northwest hunters had been "dry-camp(no water)" hunting in a remote area for a number of days and , as all hunters know, were very "ripe" with body odor. During one night, one hunter felt something in his hair and jumped up, turned, drew his revolver and shot a black bear which then climbed a tree and was finished with a rifle. What's interesting to me is this. That black bear very easily scented those three (3) "ripe hunters", waited for darkness, crept closer to the one hunter, and tried to crush his skull to make a "silent kill" and then drag his body away to eat him.

I've personally been at "arms-length" from black bears who did not run off but stood their ground. I respect them very, very much. Likewise, I'm here to tell you that if you look like "food" to them you will be eaten. Next time before you think about carrying that 9MM in black bear country, place that 9mm round next to a 44 Magnum 250g.Keith round for comparison. For me, the caliber choice is pretty obvious.

Best regards,

CJR

[RED BEAR]

i really didn't think you were serious about hunting bears with a 9mm. but to your point i do carry a 9mm at times and i realize they do not have the power of a 40 sw or 45. i remember when the military was doing the testing the 9mm and all the magazines were touting it as more effective than the 45 with the right ammo. only problem was the military has to use hardball ammo not the best hollow point rounds. when comparing the same type rounds the 45 came out on top. they already knew that the switch to 9 mm was happening so they tried to make it look like the right decision. the government has the tendency to try to make there dessions look right. while not having the power of the 40 or 45 the 9 has plenty of power for self defense. it ain't what you shoot with its where you shoot. i pray i never have to use my gun in self-defense but if i do have to shoot i will not stop until i hit something that makes them stop. the majority of times that only requires a single roung.

[CJR]

Lloyd,

I stand by my comments. Your comment, about it being more likely to be struck by lightening, etc. reminds me of an event that occurred in NJ a couple years ago. NJ has a good population of black bears because of the many protests against bear hunting. So one day three(3) or four(4) guys were out hiking in the woods and saw a black bear. All the guys, but one, left the area quickly. That remaining guy decided to take some photos of the lone black bear. Unfortunately, the black bear ran the guy down, killed him, and proceeded to eat him. The Game Commission then hunted that black bear down, now a maneater, and killed him.

It's nice to talk about personal experiences and speculate about the likelihoods of bear encounters for the GENERAL population. That statistic is phony. When one walks into black bear country we are no longer part of the "general population". We are part of a very small specific population and we are at a higher risk to black bear encounters. If I never leave my home, I have zero risk of encountering a black bear. But to get a good handle on one's risk of black bear encounters, in black bear country, it's always good to search for info on "black bears killing people". It follows that black bear encounters in New York City are zero compared to black bear encounters in black bear country. If I can establish a higher awareness of what black bears can do, I'm happy. Chances are, if one underestimates what a black bear can do; that may end up being a fatal mistake in judgement.

Best regards,

CJR

[Mr_Sheesh]

My approach has been to carry a SBH in 44 Rem Mag in black bear country, and 12 Ga in Griz country; So far so good. An IDIOT family member was "treed" up a rock wall by a ticked Black Bear some years ago, they finally saw the light; I saw if before them, seems. Anything powerful enough beats nothing, just disagreements on what is "enough" - It's your life, pick what you feel will work for you - It's your life. Mine's pretty important to me

[CJR]

Another perspective on this excellent thread. I understand completely a person just getting into handguns and not really knowing if their handgun is capable in a particular application such as a stroll in black bear country. What this thread has done is to essentially do a "Threat Assessment" of black bears. This is the same type of Threat Assessment done in good Defensive Handgun training classes. The next step in the process is to learn what is the proper weapon to use and then we need to know how to break the black bear threat down or any other kind of threat. Now a human threat may attempt to endanger you and then decide to break off the attempt. Black bears are no different; i.e. some are aggressive and attack while others do a "bluff charge" and then decide to stop and run away. All the personal black bear stories cited here are interesting as they give us insight into all the different/unpredictable ways black bears can act. But the bottom line, in all this discussion, is; "when it hits the fan", we need to know the proper weapon to use and have with us and how to break the black bear threat down. To many experienced people on this thread, this is obvious. But it is not obvious to many people that are new to weapons and want to protect themselves and their love ones for a stroll in black bear country. When things can bite; overkill is ALWAYS better than underkill.

Best regards,

CJR

[Meatpuppet]

9mm is great for people because we have thumbs and can load magazines! Bears, not so much....