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Thread: Why is 9mm great for people and not bears?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh View Post
    My approach has been to carry a SBH in 44 Rem Mag in black bear country, and 12 Ga in Griz country; So far so good. An IDIOT family member was "treed" up a rock wall by a ticked Black Bear some years ago, they finally saw the light; I saw if before them, seems. Anything powerful enough beats nothing, just disagreements on what is "enough" - It's your life, pick what you feel will work for you - It's your life. Mine's pretty important to me
    I feel bad for bowhunters, who are restricted in what firearms they can have with them when hunting. They have the most encounters with bears due to their season being in early Fall when bears are most active preparing for hibernation.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  2. #82
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    I carry a .45 for EDC and am not afraid to take it with me to the woods, where I would normally pack either a .44 Special or FA Casull (depending on which woods I walk in)...
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    No idea how you are getting that conclusion when TWICE in this thread I stated pretty clearly that I questioned the latest view that 9mm IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE as larger calibers in stopping an attacker...
    First post outlines how bears and humans are comparable in structure, with humans having more skeleton coverage of vitals. Second post is questioning why people who advocate that the 9mm is effective don't suggest it for bear. Given those two items makes the two attackers equivalent, and if caliber x isn't suitable for one type of attacker it isn't for the other.

    Bigger cartridge can cause more damage with projectile being similar technology, effective is does it complete the job. Not does it do the job "more". Bears and human attackers not being equivalent at all makes presenting the lack of confidence in 9mm for bear as evidence for lack of justifiable confidence in 9mm for humans not make much sense. A whole lot of folks are firmly of the opinion big as you can shoot is good in all situations. For most that isn't the 9mm yet many carry 9mm daily for self defense against humans. Few of them would advocate it's use as a bear gun. The simple reason is bear and humans are not equivalent attackers.

    So if larger calibers are "more" effective is 9mm effective enough? For human threats? For one of the largest predators in North America? I would say yes for human, seems in the reports linked to that it can work for bear but would not be a first choice to pack if bear are possible threat.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

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  4. #84
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    In a way, the threat from bears is like the threat from lightning - IIRC there are a few, rare people, who work in jobs in the outdoors, where they have been struck by lightning (at least "Near Misses") more than once. Example - A Ranger who was hit 7 times and survived. There are people said to have been hit 10 or 11 times.

    Statistics say something like 25 people have been killed by black bears in the last 20 years or something like that? But that's known cases. Same as with cougar attacks, one could suspect that there are more attacks where someone "just went missing" due to predation.

    And some black bear attacks are on people in sleeping bags, I've been told that if bears have access to trash dumpsters and learn to associate plastic garbage bags with food, then they can mistake a sleeping bag for a garbage sack, and if the occupant objects to being dragged off, swat it, potentially killing someone. Makes me want to only camp with a dog around!

  5. #85
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    When I hunted it was usually in black bear country. I carried the rifle for hunting and a pistol and bear spray. The pistol varied depending on what I owned at the time. .45acp, .357Mag, .45LC, and yes, even the 9mm.

    From the few instances I know of and the few articles I have read about encounters it is a game of chance, mostly depending on what the bear's state of mind is. Secondary is any weapon involved and how good the person is with it. A few of the encounters were close up with pistols being discharged into the bear's mouth.
    Not without injury to the human, one had to pry the mouth open after it had been shot and killed.

    But, encounters that required self defense are few. So many are like some described above, yell and shout and the bear goes away. We used to have a large one that 'visited' our house in the fall. It was after the garbage can. It would knock over the can, pry open the lid and take out the 'good' bags. Then sit down to eat, and I do mean sit, with the bag in it's 'lap'. When we were home we'd try yelling and horns to no avail. What would get it to move was one of those beam lanterns (big 12V battery and a car halogen driving light). It irritated the bear enough that it would get up, grab the it's bag and walk off.

    One night there was snow with a thunderstorm. Lightning struck close. In the morning we found where the bear had run through a chain link fence and another wood fence. I suspect it was feeding as usual and the lightning scared it. I would not have wanted to be in it's path. I don't think anything short of an armored car would have stopped it.

  6. #86
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    what they aren't are puppy dogs. If you act like an idiot they can be dangerous. But that said it makes me chuckle when the walter middy type straps on a 475 Linebaugh and a 12 guage pump to walk behind the house when theres a chance there might be a bear somewhere in 10 square miles of there home. Only way they make me worry is when I used to bait deer in the back yard with corn bear would come in and I worried my dog would go after them. Ive got a picture from camp one day when the family was out there having a barbeque. We have a loop driveway that's about an 1/8 of a mile around and the grandkids ride there little 3 wheeler and mini bike around it like a race track. We had a picnic table set up about 30 yards from there and about 15 people there. A bear (good sized boar) came walking out of the woods and walked right into the circle the kids were racing around and layed down and watched while it rolled in the sand to get the bugs off its hide. Did that for about a 1/2 hour and got up and walked away. Deer can attack too. Id bet theres more cases in MICH of deer attacks then bear. I don't see people getting all worked up about carrying a Linebaugh in case a deer attacks. I think some people look for ways to feel brave. If claiming black bears are as dangerous as a grizz or brown makes you feel like your a dangerous game hunter then have at it I guess. Id say that about qualifys my mom and her broom for a silver star
    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    Another perspective on this excellent thread. I understand completely a person just getting into handguns and not really knowing if their handgun is capable in a particular application such as a stroll in black bear country. What this thread has done is to essentially do a "Threat Assessment" of black bears. This is the same type of Threat Assessment done in good Defensive Handgun training classes. The next step in the process is to learn what is the proper weapon to use and then we need to know how to break the black bear threat down or any other kind of threat. Now a human threat may attempt to endanger you and then decide to break off the attempt. Black bears are no different; i.e. some are aggressive and attack while others do a "bluff charge" and then decide to stop and run away. All the personal black bear stories cited here are interesting as they give us insight into all the different/unpredictable ways black bears can act. But the bottom line, in all this discussion, is; "when it hits the fan", we need to know the proper weapon to use and have with us and how to break the black bear threat down. To many experienced people on this thread, this is obvious. But it is not obvious to many people that are new to weapons and want to protect themselves and their love ones for a stroll in black bear country. When things can bite; overkill is ALWAYS better than underkill.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  7. #87
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    Lloyd,

    You must be joking in your last post? If you're serious, you are indirectly advocating that since your mom used a broom to chase a black bear, then all we need to carry in black bear country is a "BROOM"! If there are large black bears, then carry a bigger broom. I can't wait to tell my hunting buddies that one and recommend they no longer need to carry their 44s while scouting or hunting in black bear country. Just carry a big broom! Yeah right!

    Also, your story about a large black bear in close proximity to children promotes the image that black bears are OK around kids. If that incident happened to people I know, there would of be a rush to first get the kids to safety followed by a race, by the men, to get as many hits as possible on that black bear. I can assure you that those men would not be using "brooms"!

    With all due respect, Lloyd, I have concluded that you and I are living in entirely different universes.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  8. #88
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    I am more amazed that there have been 86 replies to the original post. Let each carry what they want. If someone wants to carry a 10 inch BFR 45/70 with some of Garretts BFR loads with 550 grain bullets or a Smith J frame in 22 RF so be it. Or anything inbetween.
    If you get yourself in trouble so be it again.

    Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

  9. #89
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    Shooting a bear for showing up makes no sense to me. I would certainly think pulling people back and heading inside might be prudent as would being prepared. Can't imagine why a bear rolling in the exposed sand warrants everyone trying to get as many hits in as possible.

    I worry more about dogs mixing it up with things that are best left alone. Bears would be one. but more common would be skunks, and raccoons can do massive hurt on a dog or human while being plentiful enough that you are bound to meet some. Porcupine quills are a real treat to pull from muzzle and tongue of a dog. Venomous snakes are a dog concern in some parts of the country. In some parts of Michigan the bears have been run so much by dogs being trained off season that the bear has learned he gets left alone once they climb a tree which sort of trains the bears to head up a tree if a dog starts barking.

    I avoid things that are harmful in the woods when I can. Am cautious about trying to drive animals off but will do so if it seems feasible to do so safely. Doesn't depend on what firepower I have available as I consider that a last resort. Have seen bears, been in bear country, seen a whole lot more bear trees, tracks, and scat than actual bears. I treat bears the same way I would a large obnoxious drunk in a bar. I avoid them or leave the bar depending on the circumstances.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  10. #90
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    Rogerdat,

    May be this story will make sense to you; "baby killed by black bear" in the Catskills. Also, "Colorado Rangers Kill Bear Suspected of Mauling Child".

    Best regards,

    CJR
    Last edited by CJR; 10-19-2018 at 05:15 PM. Reason: added source

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    Rogerdat,

    May be this story will make sense to you; "baby killed by black bear" in the Catskills. Also, "Colorado Rangers Kill Bear Suspected of Mauling Child".

    Best regards,

    CJR
    ummm those are not stories they are titles in quotes. Links to articles would be stories. How about dogs? Risk is always about probability of event and degree of harm. Bears are low probability of event, the level of harm is potentially greater than a dog but a good size dog can certainly maim and kill. A pair or pack is probably more dangerous than a bear. There are something like 74 million children (under 18) in the US. How many bear attacks on them? Would that be 2 in what number of years? How many serious dog attacks in the same period?

    Riding a motorcycle I had numerous brushes with aggressive dogs, certainly large enough to kill a baby or smaller child. I'm reasonably certain there are more dog attacks on people serious enough to require hospital treatment or stay in hospital. Yet most people don't advocate shooting them on sight. Even farmers in our area will generally only shoot a dog if it harasses livestock or their own dog(s) I know that there was a pack of large dogs owned by a women in our county that attacked and killed at least one person, I think they might have attacked two people and killed one. Or possibly both.

    I have more scars from people than my dog or myself does from wildlife. Despite the dog spending 10 years hiking, canoeing, and camping with myself and children often in national or state forests. Dog did kill 2 skunks, brought a porcupine back to camp in his mouth and had scars on his face from tearing into a raccoon. He did like I do, kept an eye on bears but also kept his distance. Saw at least 2 that I know while out with him, he sniffed the air and moved on but to my knowledge never moved toward the bear for a better sniff or look. He would do that with horses, cows, sheep or other dogs but not bears. I follow the same policy. He was also no big fan of coyotes, and you could watch him at night to know when they circled the camp. Really get right down to it I think way more people including children are injured by deer while traveling by car than are mauled by bears.

    I'm not very comfortable at night moving through the desert or southern areas that are prone to venomous snakes. When I can see then I'm ok with having to be aware of where I step or reach. I took a picture of a diamond back at Independence Rock where it is only after you realize the dappling of sun and shade under the bush has scales that you can spot the snake (used a 200mm zoom lens so I could keep my distance) I didn't bother the snake, and snake didn't bother me. It didn't even occur to me to kill it. I have probably been around 100's when out west but other than some shed skin or tracks in sand that is the only about the 6th rattle snake I have seen.

    I figure there are two reasons to kill an animal. Food or the animal is attacking me. I respect that an animal can be a threat and treat wild animals with caution. I don't kill them because I'm frightened. If I was I would move to the big city and be sure to stay out of the woods and fields. Frankly I think I'm right to worry more about people in the woods than bears. Lot of good people out camping or hunting. Some others not so good and it's a long way from the police station. I carry a side arm when it seems appropriate, a first aid kit, and a fire extinguisher. Figure I'll have to do the self serve 911 thing if anything goes wrong. My job is to slow the aggressor down and give rest of family time to get a rifle.. or two I don't believe that depends on the having the biggest side arm I can shoot or shooting anything that comes near that might be a possible threat. The human threats see sidearm and wife sitting by a long gun and are not a problem.
    Last edited by RogerDat; 10-19-2018 at 09:18 PM.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  12. #92
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    Well let’s flip this argument around:

    In 1953, the world record (at the time) Boone & Crockett grizzly was felled with a .22 long (apparently the .22 LR was too much gun.)

    Now does that make .22 long the perfect carry gun?

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    ya I sure wasn't serious. No need for a broom. People live work and play in the woods up here all year long without a broom, knife of gun and I don't recall ever hearing of someone within 200 miles of me getting attacked by a bear. Ive heard of raccons wild dog and wolf enocounters and have even talked to guys who have been charged by rutting bucks but the only storys ive heard of black bear getting up close and personal were when bear hunters wounded them. I do recall one local that had a bear in its back yard in his deer corn pile and had a little ankle bitter dog who went after it and got killed. Cant much blame the bear for that. Now keep in mind we have lots of bear.

    The UP of Michigan is a well know bear hunting area. We also have hundreds of miles of state and national forest trails that the yuppy tourists walk every day and never one attack. Lived here most of my life and know not a single man that carrrys a gun in the woods because hes afraid of bear attacks. that train of though ususally comes from the walter middy types that want to pretend there doing something dangerous strolling in the woods and from yuppys from the city that the woods in general scares them. Sure isn't the train of thought of ANY local that actually lives here.

    If you feel the need or have insecurity issues carry a 458 for all I care. Chances are your correct and we live in different universes. Mine has trees and black bears and yours has concrete and black crack dealers. Or at least have a different black bear then we have here. Im sure if they really posed a danger those hiking trails would be closed or at least the state and fed government would have bear warning signs everywhere because of the liability issues that are everywhere these days. I did see once in a pamphlet that was given to hikers a warning not to feed the bears. Seems some brilliant yuppys were walking right up to them and giving them food. Funny thing is even they didn't get attacked. they are a wild animal and you need to give them respect and use some common sense. If your lacking that a 44 mag might be called for.

    As to how we protect our children. If bear attacks were an issue wed have to stop all our kids from playing in the back yard. Sorry but my kids played in the woods just like I did. they didn't wear knee pads and a helmet when they road there bicycles. All my guns weren't locked away in safes. My kids raced dirt bikes from the age of 7 (even the girls) . I let them be kids! Never raised them to fear everything I raised them to respect things and use common sense. News flash none of them died from it either. Yup a different universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    Lloyd,

    You must be joking in your last post? If you're serious, you are indirectly advocating that since your mom used a broom to chase a black bear, then all we need to carry in black bear country is a "BROOM"! If there are large black bears, then carry a bigger broom. I can't wait to tell my hunting buddies that one and recommend they no longer need to carry their 44s while scouting or hunting in black bear country. Just carry a big broom! Yeah right!

    Also, your story about a large black bear in close proximity to children promotes the image that black bears are OK around kids. If that incident happened to people I know, there would of be a rush to first get the kids to safety followed by a race, by the men, to get as many hits as possible on that black bear. I can assure you that those men would not be using "brooms"!

    With all due respect, Lloyd, I have concluded that you and I are living in entirely different universes.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-20-2018 at 07:10 AM.

  14. #94
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    someone with common sense! I remember some hunters from out of the area that were out by our camp hunting one deer season. One guy shot a bear just because it came into his bait pile because he was scared it would attack him. He even called the dnr afterward thinking they would understand. He ended up getting a real good fine and sent home. Some guys are just scared and don't belong out of the suburbs. Don't know about where some live but up hear you cant even shoot a bear if its on your porch. If you do youd better have some concrete proof that bear was attacking. Your options are yelling or using your broom. If it continues to come back you have to call the dnr and they will come out and try to relocate it. It has to be a pretty dangerous situation before they will issue you a permit to shoot it. you cannot even legaly shoot a bear that is attacking your dog. So go out wandering in the woods and kill a bear and what you will find out is you are going to have to justify it just as strongly as you would if you shot a man. Pretty tough to do when attacks are as rare as they are. Youd about best hope you have blood on your self somewhere or have a good lawyer.
    Quote Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
    Shooting a bear for showing up makes no sense to me. I would certainly think pulling people back and heading inside might be prudent as would being prepared. Can't imagine why a bear rolling in the exposed sand warrants everyone trying to get as many hits in as possible.

    I worry more about dogs mixing it up with things that are best left alone. Bears would be one. but more common would be skunks, and raccoons can do massive hurt on a dog or human while being plentiful enough that you are bound to meet some. Porcupine quills are a real treat to pull from muzzle and tongue of a dog. Venomous snakes are a dog concern in some parts of the country. In some parts of Michigan the bears have been run so much by dogs being trained off season that the bear has learned he gets left alone once they climb a tree which sort of trains the bears to head up a tree if a dog starts barking.

    I avoid things that are harmful in the woods when I can. Am cautious about trying to drive animals off but will do so if it seems feasible to do so safely. Doesn't depend on what firepower I have available as I consider that a last resort. Have seen bears, been in bear country, seen a whole lot more bear trees, tracks, and scat than actual bears. I treat bears the same way I would a large obnoxious drunk in a bar. I avoid them or leave the bar depending on the circumstances.

  15. #95
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    RogerDat,

    Sorry I didn't give you links to those two stories. But I thought it was obvious that all you had to do was type in what was in my quotation marks and hit your Search Key. Your computer will then take you directly to the actual accounts I referenced in quotation marks and many other stories as well.

    Best regards,

    CJR

    P.S.

    I decided to add a link to fatal black bear attacks in USA. Just remember that the likelihood of black bear encounters, based on the whole US population, is "skewed" statistically. As an example, in my prior hunting camp we had about thirty (30) members and for any given hunting day we had an average of about ten(10) members hunting. We had about three(3) "serious" run-ins with black bear; so, for our hunt club we members had a 3/10 or about a 30% likelihood of encountering a black bear. Point? Be careful how you interpret statistical data, based on the entire USA population, and then thinking that that likelihood of black bear encounters applies to your walk in the woods where there are black bears. It doesn't. If you are the ONLY ONE in an area, with a large population of black bears, you're at a significant risk of an black bear encounter.

    Search for; "List of Fatal Black Bear Attacks in North America Over the Last 20 Years.html"
    Last edited by CJR; 10-20-2018 at 01:21 PM. Reason: clarification

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    https://www.bear.org/website/bear-pa...ack-bears.html

    might want to carry bee spray and surely stay home if its raining too. 61 people in a 118 years! Probably more died tripping over a log then by bear attacks. I guess some should just put on a bullet proof vest in the morning and wrap themselves in 6 inches of bubble wrap and stay on the couch. probably more people in that time period were killed by air planes falling out of the sky. Don't go fishing either. Boats sink a lot more often then black bears attack. For sure don't dare drive a car on a public road or eat red meat or get within a mile of someone smoking a cigarette!! Hate to see how some that let fear control them would deal with a real combat situation. comparing black bear to griz and browns is like comparing your beagle to a wolf. Be stupid enough to Kick a beagle hard enough and often enough and it will probably go after you too. Like I said we have LOTS of black bear up here and in my lifetime ive never heard of a single person getting killed. If 30 percent of your hunting camp has had bad encounters with bears you have to be doing something pretty wrong. None at our camp or any camp I know in the area. If 1/3 of my family at camp had bad bear encounters id be buying a couple 458s for camp guns and would be calling the dnr to find out what the heck is going on because something is very wrong if your black bears are that aggressive.

    had to chuckle last night. Theres a town near by (Wallace Michigan) that a guy has an enclosure and takes in injured and orphaned black bears. Peta is after him because he charges a few bucks for people to come and feed and pet them to offset the cost of his feed! Showed him walking into an enclosure with 6 bears with a bag of feed and sprinkling it around like he was feeding pigs. that brings up another dangerous game animal. Pigs. I have a buddy who has a Russian bore enclosed hunt. His pamphlet tells of the dangers involved in those hunts to stir up business. We were in there one day culling pigs that he didn't want and a guy from ohio had shot a red stag. Dave the owner was gutting it and we had about 20 pigs trying to get at the gut pile. Laughed my you know what off watching Dave giving them a kick in the but to get them away. One was a scrawny boar. one that dave wanted shot. He turned around and shot it in the heat with his 45 colt and told one of the kids that works for him to drag I 20 yards in the woods so the pigs would stay busy eating that bore instead of bothering us. Ever hear 20 pigs jaws crunching on a carcuss at the same time and fighting over scraps? That pig wasn't but a blood stain on the ground in 15 minutes. Thank God there not running around wild! There would be body's laying everywhere in the woods.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-21-2018 at 06:58 AM.

  17. #97
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    In my view, this thread has significantly described two (2) opposite points of views on protecting one's self in black bear country. Though human fatalities, from black bears, are well documented (as shown in my posts); maulings by black bears are not documented or counted at all. Since we occasionally read about black bear maulings in the newspapers, that also must be part of our decision-making process on how to prepare for black bear encounters. But , in any case, I feel enough information has been presented in this thread to allow anyone, interested in personal black bear encounters, to make a reasonable decision on how to prepare or NOT prepare for a walk in black bear country. If I have raised anyone's awareness to the dangers of black bear encounters; I'm well pleased. But how you prepare for that walk in black bear country or what amount of risk you are willing to take is ultimately your choice.

    Best regards,

    CJR

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    yup carry a cannon if you want but heres a quote from another article.

    While attacks by black bears in Pennsylvania do occur, they are exceedingly rare, statistically almost non-existent. Of course, those statistics aren't all that meaningful to the handful of people who have been attacked over the past few decades.

    The Pennsylvania Game Commission has no record of any fatal attacks in Pennsylvania during the past century. The first one in New Jersey was recorded in fall 2014, and that was close to the state line with Pennsylvania.
    Since 1884 there has been ONE person killed in PA by a black bear and that incident was a bear in captivity. If you want protection from danger in the woods youd be better off buying a helmet for tree limbs falling on your head. Or just stay home because the trip to the woods is 100s of times more dangerous then the bears in the woods. You will see me many times carrying a gun in the woods but for the most part I about always have a gun on me. I don't pretend that a bear is going to attack me or someone is going to shoot me in k mart. I carry a gun because I just like guns and its my right to carry one. Ill give you one bit of advice them ill let you have this thread. If you have a gun and see a bear in the woods you had better have some concrete proof that bear wanted to kill you if you shoot it because your probably in for more court time and lawyer fees then if you shot your neighbor. The game dept in your state KNOWS how rare attacks are and frown on people shooting them because they stumbled on one and are just scared. Bottom line is if theres no blood on you and you have no impartial witness they wont excuse it. they also know that 99 percent of bear mauling's are because someone did something real stupid. Unprovoked attacks by black bear are so rare that they don't bother with statistics. tin foil hat stuff. If I lived in griz/brown/polar bear habitat id probably think a bit different. But even attacks by them are blown way out of proportion to reality. I would have to think if 30 percent of my family was attacked in Walmart my first solution would be to tell them to stay out of Walmart. Not to return to Walmart the next day with a 44mag and shoot everyone that looks at your wrong or is walking toward them looking aggressive. I guess a day in the woods where there is a almost non existant threat doesn't even require me to put my big boy pants on let alone strap on a 44 mag. Life is just to full of REAL things to worry about to even give a thought to something like the sky falling. You can get the last word in now as I think anyone that really has lived around black bears knows the truth.

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    I would not say the PA Game Commission KNOWS anything. They’ve decimated deer herds w/ their poor management. They’ve denied coyotes being in areas well after the populations have been established. The list goes on and on. I have fewer gripes w/ the PAGC then most hunters. But even I have them.

    It’s also funny how people use statistics to prove their point. And then deny statistics being “proof” when they’re used as a counterpoint to their argument.

  20. #100
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    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    munising Michigan
    Posts
    17,725
    copy and post the link he gave and it was for ALL bears not black bears. I posted FACTS on actual black bear caused deaths. I never said browns, grizzly and polar bears (the most dangerous) were not an issue. But even they are rare. 61 black bear deaths in a 118 years. that's one every two years. One case in your state and that was a bear in an enclosure not in the wild. Many more men are killed by there own wife or about any cause you can dream up. Maybe you should pack in bed at night. Do some here really need to feel they can handle danger so strongly they ignore the TRUTH and live in a fantasy world. Walking in the woods with those mean old bears isn't impressing anyone that knows better. this whole argument reminds me the liberals that think an ar15 will jump out of the safe, go full auto and kill everyone within a 2 mile radius. Like was said the chances of this happening are so slim that statistics aren't even needed. Whole argument is ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    I would not say the PA Game Commission KNOWS anything. They’ve decimated deer herds w/ their poor management. They’ve denied coyotes being in areas well after the populations have been established. The list goes on and on. I have fewer gripes w/ the PAGC then most hunters. But even I have them.

    It’s also funny how people use statistics to prove their point. And then deny statistics being “proof” when they’re used as a counterpoint to their argument.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-22-2018 at 07:53 AM.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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