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Thread: Why is 9mm great for people and not bears?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master





    Idaho45guy's Avatar
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    Why is 9mm great for people and not bears?

    I keep reading how 9mm is just as effective as a self-defense round as the .40 S&W and .45 acp.

    The average American male weighs 200lbs. Same as the average American black bear.

    And if you look at the skeletal structure of both, you will notice that the human skeleton offers better protection of vital organs than the bear's.

    Attachment 228412

    Attachment 228413
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  2. #2
    Boolit Master





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    So why do those that love the 9mm for self-defense never suggest it for woods carry against black bear and other predators?
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

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    Hide/Fur & Fat on the bear would be the reason why, I would think would be the answer your question. Have to get thru the thicker protection that humans do not have in that regard. Their skeleton is a bit "sturdier" built ( think "density") than a humans as well, so the combination of both would come into play for sure. ( I am not sure I am explaining the skeletal part, but consider that their fore legs cover their vitals much better than most humans & they are usually on 4 legs when shot & not on two, so that is a factor as well. Their "chest" is not as easily hit due to their being on all 4's, particularly "coming at you" as compared to "a human coming at you"... )
    Last edited by JBinMN; 10-07-2018 at 04:36 AM.
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    Boolit Master
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    I carry a 45 Auto. Do very rarely carry a 9MM. Just to keep them from getting their feelings hurt.

    Again I mean no harm, hurt or anguish by what I have posted. It is only based on my knowledge, belief and /or experience only, nothing more. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone here about anything and don't want to give the idea that I am. Thank you.

  5. #5
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    To be clear, I do believe that the 9mm is an effective self-defense round. I own a carry pistol in 9mm. But I also believe that the .40 S&W is more effective.

    What bothers my logical brain is the argument that the 9mm is just as effective as the larger calibers due to improvement in bullet design. So, the larger calibers don't also enjoy the same increase in effectiveness from the same bullets??
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

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    ill put it this way. Ive shot a pile of deer and it amazes me how far they (or a bear, pig ect) will run with its insides turned to mush. Ive seen 60lb fawns run 50-100 yards after being shot with a 257 wby. Shoot a man even in the guts with a 257 and hes not going anywhere!! Animals have an instinct to run or attack when hurt. Man does not. Mans instinct when getting hurt is to protect against more pain. Man also has a fear of a gun where an animal when shot has no idea what caused the pain and if they think its you they don't know that you have another one in the chamber ready to go. Evolution has taken the fight and flight instincts away from us. the world is just to safe for us to need them. Its why you need to be trained in the military to fight and kill. It doesn't come natural to us anymore. Our train of thought goes more toward the "get into the fetal position and play dead" senerio. It kind of relates to what my instructor told us in combat training. The biggest strongest men are usually the easiest to stop. They grew up not having to fight because everyone feared them. Its the small guy that got picked on that usually is the hardest to stop.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-07-2018 at 06:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Well, if you need a certain amount of hitting and an old 9mm FMJ didn't quite do it, but the modern bullets do, then it'd be effective. And with the same increase in bullet effectiveness, the others would be more effective. We don't need a 105mm Artillery piece to stop an attacker, just "Enough to do the job", and if someone cannot use a 45 or 40 and can use a 9mm, it would then do the job.

    Family member used to date a lady who was very arthritic, had bad use of her hands - Couldn't shoot much more than a .22LR effectively. She was a Criminal Defense Lawyer, to make things, uh, "More Interesting." She'd have a tough time potentially, but you DO have to work within your abilities.

    But for most, a .45 at least can be dealt with, you need the proper training though. If you have to download the bullets somewhat and use a less stiff spring, that's OK, so long as whatever you use will WORK. I'd rather someone have the "I will defend myself" mindset ANY day over "I'll hope a police officer happens by and if not, I guess I am out of luck" mindset; That can end badly, and DOES, too often.

    Bears also have a LOT of muscle mass; I wouldn't want to wrestle one, that'd HURT.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    ill put it this way. Ive shot a pile of deer and it amazes me how far they (or a bear, pig ect) will run with its insides turned to mush. Ive seen 60lb fawns run 50-100 yards after being shot with a 257 wby. Shoot a man even in the guts with a 257 and hes not going anywhere!! Animals have an instinct to run or attack when hurt. Man does not. Mans instinct when getting hurt is to protect against more pain. Man also has a fear of a gun where an animal when shot has no idea what caused the pain and if they think its you they don't know that you have another one in the chamber ready to go. Evolution has taken the fight and flight instincts away from us. the world is just to safe for us to need them. Its why you need to be trained in the military to fight and kill. It doesn't come natural to us anymore. Our train of thought goes more toward the "get into the fetal position and play dead" senerio. It kind of relates to what my instructor told us in combat training. The biggest strongest men are usually the easiest to stop. They grew up not having to fight because everyone feared them. Its the small guy that got picked on that usually is the hardest to stop.
    People are a wild card. I've seen drop on the spot from a center mas hit from a 5.56, and I've seen them run a city block after taking a busrt to the gust from the M240G 7.62 medium machine gun. Nobody ever ran from the 50 cal or the 40mm though...

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Could it be a stopping vs. killing thing? You don't necessarily have to kill a person to make them stop doing the bad thing they are doing.
    Paper targets aren't your friends. They won't lie for you and they don't care if your feelings get hurt.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    People are not bears also you seldom get a shot at a standing bear. Don't compare skeletal structure from the posted pictures. Can someone stop a bear with a 9 'm, yes, but sub-optimum caliber choice.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Bears have thicker hide, and much denser bone. Not to mention more mass.

  12. #12
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    Why is 9mm great for people and not bears? = Because Bears are built differently than people.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    What makes the 9mm "great for people" is that it's great for shooting for people. Light recoil, large round capacity, etc. That's the great part, not the stopping power of the round. Also, most people stop when they get hit with the first round. A bear doesn't.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    In addition to the fat/ fur thing, I agree with Lloyd and others that there is a psychological factor in humans that just doesn’t exist in animals. Also, animals are tougher and more tenacious than humans, so they take more stopping.
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


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    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    Humans & animals go down more easily when they are in a relaxed state. When excited or scared
    the adrenalin starts pumping and crazy things can happen. I have shot a lot of deer, most jumped
    from heavy cover. Dead on the run until they run into a tree, same hit on a grazing deer drops it
    on the spot. It like a chicken trying to fly with its head cut off. Unless pumped full of dope humans
    don't seem to have this trait.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Fur, fat, muscle, bone. Plus shear determination of a true animal. Not too worried about blackies though. They’re fairly shy. Seen a bunch on hikes in the southern appalachians over the past 25 years or so. They usually do their thing and wander off. Don’t corner a sow with cubs.

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    Animals are tougher then people you ever shoot a squirrel with a 22 long rifle and have him feel sorry for himself and just lay down and give up no sir animals are tougher then people
    kids that hunt and fish dont mug old ladies

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    So why do those that love the 9mm for self-defense never suggest it for woods carry against black bear and other predators?
    Attitude. If you put a hole in a bear or human, it is going to alter their attitude. A human is more likely to collapse or flee, whereas a bear just might do the opposite. If a bear is already wound up and coming at me, I want the heaviest and largest chunk of lead that I can shoot accurately to hopefully change it's attitude. A 9mm will kill a bear if you hit it in the right place, heck bears have been killed with 22's but I wouldn't rely on it. Penetration is important, as is the ability to break bones. A hard cast bullet in 40something or larger would be my choice.

  19. #19
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    For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    End of discussion!
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    End of discussion!
    For humans, over penetration may need to be considered.
    For bears, not so much.
    Otherwise, I agree.

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