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Thread: Why is 9mm great for people and not bears?

  1. #41
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    The study I quoted is dealing with problem bears and those that might be chewing on you. For a straight through the gullet shot it may not matter if you have a 13 shot BHP with 125 gr rn or a 44 5 shot. What I believe the article set up was that if you can still draw and dump your magazine at a range that may be less than 6 feet a 9 can be effective.
    That takes a real effective shooter who is cool under pressure rather than a practiced shot.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  2. #42
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    A big black bear with plenty of fat is probably not a quick put down with a 9mm until you get more than two into the kill zone. Connecting with three good shots before he connects with you is why the 9mm is a poor choice.

    I recently read up on the postings (another forum) by a shooter who made a living that involved looking at the aftermath of a lot of gang shootings. Before he saw the end result of these shootings, he carried a 9mm. Now he recommends 357, 40 or better.

    The 9 is ok for SD most of the time. This "most of the time" does not include things like an armed and determined drug numbed idiot or something like a 280 lb + guy wearing heavy winter gear.

    Just like the fat bear that may get to you before you connect with a third hit, good guys can get into similar situations with the harder to put down than typical two legged bad guys.

    Some point to widespread use of the 9mm in military applications. In the military, most opponents will not be those exceptions mentioned above that require more than a 9mm. For military applications, total rounds available is an advantage for the 9mm that generally makes it a good choice as compared to rounds that do better at quick put down for the exceptionally tough opponent.

    If your chances of shooting in a self defense situation is very low (in the woods or in the hood), any gun is better than no gun. Proficiency with what you have is a priority for this situation. Expect the need to put multiple hits where it counts if you ever do resort to using your gun.

    If you are less fortunate and you really do expect that you will need to put an opponent down to save your own skin, why carry anything less than a 357 or a 40?

    Along the same lines, if there is any chance that you will face a bear that is bigger than a black, why think about anything less than a 41 magnum? Most people that can handle a 357 can handle a 41 with an extra 2" of barrel. And do not forget that barrel ports are definitely a plus in this application.

    From my reading, a 44 mag with factory JHPs seems to be well regarded by experienced guides for SD against the big ones. They seem less convinced with anything different than JHPs or anything with signficantly less clout.

    Proficiency matters the most, but for a big bear it seems smart to use the biggest thing you can handle. You may not have time to put "multiple kill shots" into the beast. Compared to those I shoot with, I tolerate hand slapping better than most. If I were planning to wander around in rough Alaska, my preference would be to get and try to become proficient with a something like a 5 shot 454 with a 4" barrel. If I found I could not handle the 454, I would step down to a 44 or 41. The 41 does not give up much in punch, but the reduced recoil for the same gun weight does increase the potential for good second and following shots.
    Last edited by P Flados; 10-08-2018 at 11:51 PM.

  3. #43
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    IDK on JHPs, for Griz at least you'd want penetration - as much as you can get. Black Bear, JHPs would be OK tho I'd think. When in AK I was carrying a 12Ga with 50 cal BRI Saboted slugs, never did have a problem but I'd think it would have sufficed. (Drove through Canada so couldn't really bring handguns up there.) For Griz for certain, I would prefer not to get gnawed on, and a Black Bear gnawing on you would HURT a bit!

  4. #44
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    Well I shoot more 9s then probably every other round I load for put together. I love shooting it. Its cheap to load and mild to shoot. Ive got 7 9mm pistols and 2 ar15s chambered in it. All that said it IS NOT GREAT FOR HUMANS. Its ok but not much more. I even carry one often but truth be told if I ever got into a gun fight (which isn't likely) id sure wish id left it at home and had a 40 or 45. Sure you can find some test that shows they stop as well as a bigger gun. Heck I can find a test that says about anything is better then something else. What it isn't is a round that was ever designed in any way for a hunting or animal defense gun. Not even for black bear or deer let alone a big bear. Personaly I wouldn't waste my time carrying the weight of a 9mm 40 or 45 around if I thought I might get attacked by a bear. Guns for that start at the 44 mag and even then if an enraged bear that was wounded was coming for me id much prefer a 454 475 or 500. A 4 5/8s gun chambered in those rounds isn't a whole lot harder to carry then a full sized 9mm or 40 or 45. Bottom line is no matter which I was carrying im sure not dropping my rifle to grab my handgun. Even an 06 or 270 is going to be more likely to stop a bear then a 500 Linebaugh. Ive shot buffalo with 475s and 500s and watched them keep eating until they realized they were dead. Talk to John Linebaugh. Probably the most knowledgeable big bore handgun man in the world today and he will tell you hes seen the same. Yes a big bore cast bullet with a good meplat will penetrate end to end about any animal in the world at any angle short of an elephant. But they aren't t rex killers and don't flatten everything you shoot with them. I once shot a small 6 point buck with my 500 out of my bow scaffold at 20 yards with a 420grain lfn at 1200 fps. Hit it right behind the shoulder and it ran almost 200 yards before it piled up dead. Now poke a little 9mm hole in a 800 lb angry bear with a 120 at a 1000 fps and you can about count on an up close and personal encounter. Why is there such a fascination with getting away with the smallest possible gun for a given job?

  5. #45
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    On shooting bear with the 9mm BB load...

    One thing not noted in a lot of the articles is that 5 of the bullets were recovered in the bear. It didn't say if the other two were pass through shots or just not recovered. For a round that is supposed to have 4' of penetration, it did not in real bear... One of the pictures in the article I saw showed the bear with the hide off. One of the bullets was a cross body shot about where the kidneys are. One can see the track of the bullet from where it entered to the end where the bullet is sticking up out of the muscle...about 18-24" of penetration with no bones struck.

    What bothers me is the fact that after the first shot in the neck from a distance of 6' that failed to hit the spine, the bear began to spin just a few feet from the clients for probably 10+ seconds as Phil put six more rounds into the bear which still did not put the bear down. The bear then started to run off when Phil put the 7th round into the bear and six feet later finally dropped...

    My contention from the time this was reported was that when the bear started to run off if the path taken had been over the clients we would not be having the discussion about the use of 9mm for bear defense...

    The BB round is for those who have nothing more than a 9mm..

    Bob

  6. #46
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    I'd rather have a .45 than a 9mm for humans or bears. With hardcast, a heavy 9mm might even penetrate as deep as a .45, but it ain't gonna tear as wide of a hole. Nor will it carry near the weight, and, therefore, energy, if you believe in that sort of thing.
    I've always sorta thought the "overpenetration" thing was a load of **** given that most rounds fired by cops miss(!). Inside of your own home may be a different story. In the woods, I'd just as soon it go plumb through and kill the bear behind the bear in front.

  7. #47
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    30+ years ago as a graveyard shift deputy in the Banning, CA area I was called to assist a local police department's officers on containment of a prowler sighted in the back yard of a very nice home in the upscale section of that city. The suspect was moving very quickly eastbound, vaulting backyard fences as he proceeded. One of the PD's officers placed himself at the far east end of this tract and took up a barricade position with his 1911A1 in 45 ACP. Note that said officer was a former Navy SEAL, and his pistol was stoked with Winchester Silvertip 185 grain JHPs.

    The suspect came into view across the large back yard that the officer was set up at. The suspect--a black bear--continued running right at the officer's position. The officer got on target and began firing to stop the oncoming bear. I was about 100 yards away when the firing began, and heard it clearly--5 shots about 3/4 second apart. The officer got on the air and advised, "Black bear down, back yard of XYZ Blank Street. Resume normal traffic". The bear piled up about 15 feet short of the officer's position, with a board fence between them.

    Bears were frequent visitors into settled areas of Banning and Cherry Valley during the time I worked the Pass Area (1982-1987). This incident is the only time I recall that a bear had to be shot to resolve a problem. We had many more calls for service in the County area involving bruins--they didn't mind the red/blue lights flashing near them, and ignored siren "bumps" enthusiastically. What ran them off was a move I learned entirely by accident--keying the mic on the patrol car's PA speaker annoyed them A LOT--the open carrier sounds must have hurt their ears. So we started using mic clicks on the PAs at full volume, and the bears that showed up on trash nights exited without much delay. 30 years on, my Mom now lives at the mobile home park where the nuisance bears made most of their forays when I patrolled the area. USFS-type trash and recycle bins in place at the MHP make life hard on the bears, so they aren't as pestiferous now as they were in past years. A few idiot humaniacs insist upon leaving food out for the bears, though--residents get one warning from park management, a 2nd violation gets reported to Cal-Fish & Wildlife. THAT gets expensive.

    End note--this involved officer was an impressive and professional law man. A few years after this incident, he attended law school and achieved his Juris Doctor, passed the CA Bar Exam, and went to work for the San Bernardino County District Attorney's Office. Just within the past year, he passed away due to cancer at a relatively young age. He is greatly missed.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  8. #48
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    I have some large bear experiences from hunting in PA, which has the largest black bears in the world. My first experience was when my buddy shot a 550Lb black bear in Long Pond swamp, PA using a 30/06. He hit the black bear and continued hitting the bear until he emptied his rifle. He then reloaded and continued shooting until his rifle was empty again. During this adventure the bear was rolling and roaring until it expired. It took 10 hunters, with a Jeep, from 10AM to 4PM to get the bear out of the swamp. We hung the bear up and he was about 7 ft -"nose to toes". I had a chance to feel the bear's structure; its ligaments were like steel cables and he had solid hard muscles and massive bone structure. I remember thinking that this bear could break a horse's back with his front legs. Second experience was when our Club President took another 550 lb black bear at about 25 yds. The President, a former sniper in 'Nam, started the process also with a 30/06. Same roaring and rolling occurred until the bear gave his final death howl. We opened the bear up and found that NONE of the 4 bullets exited the bear. Likewise, the bear had about 2" of fat that was white as snow. It took 7 of us, using a car nylon tow strap, to move it 50 yds to a guard rail by a road. It took us 2 tries to lift the bear over the guard rail. We tried to load the bear on a car platform, typically used for deer, and busted the platform. Another 800 lb black bear was also taken up the road about a mile from our hunting camp. In a previous hunting camp, that our camp leased, we had 7 black bears around our small remote cabin with the largest black bear sow at about 637 lbs(i.e. drug darted and weighed by the Game Commission). There was another incident, in our hunting area, where a car hit a large black bear crossing the road at night. The car was totaled and the bear wandered off.

    I scout a lot for deer in bear country. What I've learned is large black bears can be very tough to kill. You can forget about getting a kill with a lot of bullet energy dump into a large bear, i.e. if a bear can total a car and walk off; bullet energy dump is not the answer. In my view, large hole pass-through penetration, to insure bleed-out; along with bone-busting ( front shoulder by front shoulder) will help slow/immobilize the bear to enable follow-up shots- is the way to go. Just remember, black bears have been clocked at 40 mph and they can close the distance pretty quickly. Likewise, lead's cheap and the more you apply the better the outcome for you. I like 44 handguns, with excellent penetrating/bone busting 250 gr. Keith CB at 950 to 1350fps as back-up to my rifle. When the shooting starts, you're in for the time of your life.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  9. #49
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    Another reason that 9mm is good for people but not for bear is that...Most places will not sell 9mm ammo to Bears. If a Bear can't get ammo for his 9mm you would have to agree that the 9mm is not "good for Bear".

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    Another reason that 9mm is good for people but not for bear is that...Most places will not sell 9mm ammo to Bears. If a Bear can't get ammo for his 9mm you would have to agree that the 9mm is not "good for Bear".
    i think they'd sell to bears, but bears dont have pockets to carry money in, so no sale!

  11. #51
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
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    Lotta great bear stories! Thanks for sharing. I love reading stuff like that.
    Due to the price of primers, warning shots will no longer be given!

  12. #52
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    if all you've got is a saw horse that's what you use. The level is hung up at voyagers lumber in ely
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  13. #53
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
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    Did the bear turn out to be rabid? That is some crazy stuff there.
    Due to the price of primers, warning shots will no longer be given!

  14. #54
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    GP the biggest problem with the 9MM is the fact that it is not superior to any caliber starting with 4. Teh 9MM round was developed by the Germans before WW1. It was rejected by our Army shortly thereafter as being insufficient for Combat usage.

    The .45 ACP became our caliber which went unchanged until 1985 or so when idiots in Congress decided that the 9MM was adequate for the people we were shooting at that time. in reality the only thing superior about the round is the cost of the ammo which always cheaper than anything bigger simply because it requires less metal to make a 9MM round.

    People now say there are tests proving that 9mm is superior to .40 and .45 because of the new ammo. This is obviously BS as ammo companies make the same types of ammo in .40 and .45,,, and as we all know when it comes to guns,,,, bigger is always better.

    One other reason why they say it is superior is because most guns made for 9mm have a higher magazine capacity than for bigger calibers.
    the reason for this is because when you shoot someone with a 9MM you will inevitably need to shoot them more times to get the same effect as being shot once with a .40 or .45!

    The fact that this cartridge is not really suitable for killing Humans in a "humane way" should rule out it's use for bears as well.!

    Just sayin' ?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  15. #55
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    The most obvious reason for human beings to appear to be more vulnerable to being shot with [fill in the blank] is that people are more intelligent than any animal. Animals do not recognize or understand that they have been shot - that is, the bullet must do the complete job of stopping-killing, no psychological enhancement. People, however, recognize and understand what has happened. Most will be affected with " I give up" or "I've been shot. Oh, my Aunt Tilly's hind end" or other extremely negative reaction.

    By way of an example from life, I have a friend who had been a uniformed LEO in a moderately sized suburban community. He and his partner were chasing an armed fugitive escaping from his hotel room on the hotel's fire escape. Bob was waiting at the bottom. The fugitive shot at Bob and began climbing. Bob followed, caught him, and "helped" him down the fire escape to the ground. Bob handcuffed and then noticed he had been shot in the thigh. Bob collapsed in a heap. The wound was through-and-through penetration in muscle without injury to femoral artery or any branch - that is, non-lethal. My point is that until the human being recognized he had been shot, he hadn't been shot in his consciousness. Recognition with understanding caused his body's collapse. This incident and evaluation of wound is Bob's and not mine. And this first hand telling of the tale is important. It is Bob stating that it was his recognition of the wound that caused him to collapse.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    ill put it this way. Ive shot a pile of deer and it amazes me how far they (or a bear, pig ect) will run with its insides turned to mush. Ive seen 60lb fawns run 50-100 yards after being shot with a 257 wby. Shoot a man even in the guts with a 257 and hes not going anywhere!! Animals have an instinct to run or attack when hurt. Man does not. Mans instinct when getting hurt is to protect against more pain. Man also has a fear of a gun where an animal when shot has no idea what caused the pain and if they think its you they don't know that you have another one in the chamber ready to go. Evolution has taken the fight and flight instincts away from us. the world is just to safe for us to need them. Its why you need to be trained in the military to fight and kill. It doesn't come natural to us anymore. Our train of thought goes more toward the "get into the fetal position and play dead" senerio. It kind of relates to what my instructor told us in combat training. The biggest strongest men are usually the easiest to stop. They grew up not having to fight because everyone feared them. Its the small guy that got picked on that usually is the hardest to stop.
    Geez, Lloyd, that's the best explanation for caliber selection & defensive mind set I've ever run across...great post senor!...Rod

  17. #57
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    I still remember a story from one of the more famous hunters about Grizzly.

    The .30-06 was bad. Bear took 6 shots and was still walking around. They got the .300 Win Mag out and shot it 6 more times and it finally rolled over. No charging or any other high intensity stuff. All 12 shots were in the chest area. They found two of the shots hit the shoulder but did not break it (they concluded those were from the .30-06 just because a 'magnum' would have definitely broken bone).

    I like the forest service recommendation. 12ga with slugs or .375 Mag rifle.

    Never have been in Grizzly country on foot and don't plan to.

  18. #58
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    I guess my comparison for the 9mm would be the .357 Mag. We all know that .357 is about the starting level for a "real" bear gun, and with the Buffalo Bore offerings (+P+) the 9 is elevated into .357 territory. I do know two gentlemen that have stopped griz with 9mm handguns, one being the aforementioned Phil Shoemaker, and another being an instructor at our local shooting school that I train at. Both used the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman rounds. The local gentleman fired two rounds on a sow grizzly while bowhunting, both hits, both high. He was aiming for a head shot and hit her between the shoulders (lung shot) with the first round, which slowed her considerably, and dropped her with a second round between the shoulders (spine/high shoulder).
    To me, this illustrates what I believe to be the key in stopping bears with handguns; CNS/bone structure hits are what stop bears. Any handgun will kill a bear with a heart/lung hit, but we are talking about needing to STOP bears right now by breaking them down. Truthfully, most handguns you could carry are woefully underpowered compared to a bear rifle.
    An interesting side note on bears vs. handguns, that same range that we train at offers bear defense courses, and has tested quite a few handguns and loads. The only autos they tested that would meet penetration requirements were heavy loaded 10mm and 9mm rounds with TMJ or hardcast bullets. No .45acp or .40 rounds would do it, they're all too slow, using short fat bullets. Sectional density and velocity are what's needed to get penetration.

    Oh, and for my money I carry my SBH when in griz country loaded with 340 grain LBT WFN's!
    Raisin' Black Angus cows, outta gas, outta money, outta tags, low on boolits, but full 'a hope on the Rocky Mountain Eastern Slope!
    Why does a man with a 7mag never panic buy? Because a man with a 7mag has no need to panic!

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  19. #59
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    There's a lot to be said for a carbine in .357 or .44, unfortunately there isn't always room to carry one. This issue raises a real dilemma for me. Because of familiarity and lack of recoil, I would get 9 accurate shots out of my 1911 (38 Super) well before I would get 6 out of my SBH (480 Ruger). If I had to leave for bear country today, I'm not sure which I would choose.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

    End of discussion!
    I did not even bother reading any further.
    Don Verna


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