Cheap India guns

[waksupi]

A good cautionary topic about these pieces of pure ****.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...cdfb79863ce6b3

[rfd]

junk is junk.

[indian joe]

A good cautionary topic about these pieces of pure ****.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...cdfb79863ce6b3

Lots of questions around this
I reckon I could find you ten (at least) 12 gauge ML shotgun barrels made from seamless drawn hydraulic or steam tube - shot in regular competition - normal loads - no blow ups - some of em been going thirty years -- ounce and an eigth shot load, 65 to 90 grains of Fg or FFg, appropriate card wads - good, careful operators, that made their barrel, load it right, clean it properly and dont come to any harm.
There seems to be an idea among re enactors that blackpowder behind a toilet paper wad cant generate pressure .......B S...... and further they dont seem to make any connection between the louder boom they get with heavy wadding and increased pressure. Thats plain crazy!
110 grains of blackpowder and too much TP wadding would have enough energy to blow pretty near any barrel - who knows how much this dude stuffed down bore!
Yeah the gun might have been a piece of junk but I bet there also some serious operator problems involved.

[curator]

Waksupi,

An interesting thread with comments by "mostly" knowledgeable people. Not to condemn an entire class of black powder shooters, but my experience with "reenactors" makes me suspicious of a serious unintentional (probably but not necessarily) overload caused this failure. A double or even triple charge of FFFg powder might result in a split barrel. No reenactment scenario that I know of would involve a wad of any sort being rammed down the barrel--again calling into question how and what the gun was loaded with.

[rfd]

THAT blown pipe bomb gun was junk from the get-go. any and all of those india guns are suspect on many many levels. like playing russian roulette, which with these guns is just as stupid and suicidal.

[1Hawkeye]

Most of those junkers from India are made for the tourists as wall hangers. I can't believe someone was actually stupid enough to fire one. If he really is a reinactor then he knows that the maximum charge for a round is 60 grs and no wadding.

[bob208]

I have seen a lot of those Indian guns .one ousabler two were usable but on the whole I would say they are nice wall hangers.

[Ragnarok]

Hmmm....the Euroarms 1861 .58 rifle/musket I bought used a month ago says '.58 3 drams' on the bottom of the barrel. I presume this is a max charge as I believe 3 drams equates to approx. 80 gr powder.


My IAB Sharps 1863 carbine destruction manual lists 80gr 2F as max load.

My ancient 'Black Powder Handbook' lists service charges for original and reproduction guns. The book lists 60gr as service load for both the 1861 musket and percussion Sharps .54....I'll have to look to see what the service load is for a Brown Bess .75....However I am guessing it ain't 110gr powder!


Seems I do recall that the destruction manual for my TC Renegade .54 listed charges up to 120gr for round ball....but that's with a thick rifle barrel and not a thin musket barrel. The black powder handbook I have has an article about the diminishing returns of larger and larger powder charges charting the bullet velocities for various quanities of powder and it becomes obvious that huge charges add little if any more velocity per shot....the excess powder just making more recoil and smoke.

Not sure just how that might relate to the needs of a reenactor for smoke and BOOM. That link above with the destroyed musket is old...l've read the link before in discussions over the merits of cheap Indian muskets. I am not going to judge the guns over a burst barrel or two....some folks have a talent for destroying guns and it's never their fault!

[toot]

i went to a event were the REV WAR, reinactors fired only blanks for the public at the event. and after it was over i said to one of the historic group members my god your BROWN BESS was rely a mess from all day of shooting for the public, and you certainly have your cleaning cut out for you tonight. he said to me clean what we only shoot black powder and next week we will be doing it all over again, the muskets are only REPROS.! WOW!! now that is scary. do you think this practice could contribute to a catastrophic failure??

[rfd]

toot, it might not if they're only loading powder and not using any manner of wadding (which they shouldn't be using, anyway).

in any event, not cleaning up a fired bp gun is just being lazy and will lead to ignition issues and corroded metal, far sooner than later, contributing to an unsafe firearm.

[Ragnarok]

My biggest issue with the Indian made flintlocks are that they are shipped without a touch-hole drilled...so these are not fired or proofed at the factory in any manner.

[rfd]

"no proof, no shoot".

[RED BEAR]

enough powder will blow up any gun its not that hard to do. the trick is to know what you have and load accordingly.

[wgr]

so you guys are saying you can shoot a round ball out of a gun but cant put a wad over the charge and shoot it.

[waksupi]

In a quality 12 bore gun, 110 gr. of either 2FF or 3FFF are safe. DOM tubing does indeed have a weak seam, they are just hidden by drawing a button through to smooth the cylinder. You might buy a cheap India gun, but hospital bills tend to be expensive.

[arcticap]

I think another important lesson here is about how a constriction can cause just about any barrel to rupture even if it's made
from the best modern gun steel.
I watched a video of a Canadian hunter (along with his pal who was making the video ) take a shot at a deer with IIRC, a modern .270 bolt action rifle.
It had been raining earlier not long before the shot was taken, and then the temperature cooled down.
They weren't sure if there was water in the barrel that froze or not, or if it was only water in the barrel that caused it to rupture.
But upon taking the shot, the barrel ruptured which was quite shocking to see it happen after the trigger was pulled.
Luckily the shooter was unhurt.
This video was published on an alternative video hosting website and not youtube.
I don't remember there being any snow on the ground, and it wasn't a deep winter hunt.
Just a cold weather hunt I guess.
My point is that when hunting where there's any chance of snow, water, dirt, rocks, mud or ice etc.. entering the muzzle of the barrel,
that the muzzle should be covered and protected to prevent anything that can cause an obstruction or constriction from entering it.

CVA has videos dedicated to showing how easy it is to blow up any model or make of muzzle loader due to various forms of barrel obstructions.
They intentionally caused the rupture of multiple makes of muzzle loader barrels and warn to be careful about using safe loading procedures, and
now I'm trying to refresh people's memories from when they first took a hunter safety course and were warned about protecting their muzzle from
any foreign debris entering their bore.

I always try to cover the muzzle with a balloon stretched over it and then secure it with a rubber band when hunting during our winter muzzle loading
deer season held in mid to late December here in New England.
Some people place tape over their muzzle.
Clumps of snow fall from tree limbs, people accidently dip their muzzle into the snow, can slip, stumble or fall with the muzzle dipping into mud or muck.
With many modern weapons and designs, the bore can be easily checked to see if it's clear and unobstructed.
But with traditional muzzle loaders, that's not so easy when out in the field.
Especially if it starts out as being simple rain drops.
If more people were aware of the potential for rupture from moisture or frozen moisture in their barrel, perhaps more people would try to prevent it
or check for it when the temperatures drop.
Be safe. Constrictions don't only affect cheap guns made in India.
A rupture can happen to any gun, even the best guns made from the best steel and to the highest standards.

[Buzzard II]

....yeah, but I'll bet it was cheap.

[curator]

he said to me, clean what? We only shoot black powder and next week we will be doing it all over again, the muskets are only REPROS.! WOW!! now that is scary. do you think this practice could contribute to a catastrophic failure??

I am always suspicious of "operator error" when I see a firearm blown up with blank charges by a reenactor. After 30+ years of working with, supervising, and training reenactors as safety officer, events coordinator and muzzle loading instructor, I have come to realize that a large portion of their ranks are composed of people who are quite ignorant of firearms maintenance and safety. Many do not clean their guns until they take them out to prepare for the next event often months later. Misfires, hang fires, and double charges (both intentional and unintentional) are common. Only a few of them can tell you the difference between 3Fg and Fg black powder. I once investigated when a reenactor's gun sounded way over charged and found he had loaded his cartridges with FFFFg black powder "to get a better report." We used to make the reenactors tie their loading rods in their muskets so they wouldn't be tempted to use them to add wadding. Several shot loading rods later we demanded they physically remove them before being allowed on the field. Reenactors complain about very restrictive rules making events less fun but without careful scrutiny and control, safety gets thrown out the window. I would not even allow reenactors to use their own made-up paper cartridges and inspect horns and pouches to prevent them from slipping in a couple of ear-splitting loads.

[JoeJames]

I am always suspicious of "operator error" when I see a firearm blown up with blank charges by a reenactor. After 30+ years of working with, supervising, and training reenactors as safety officer, events coordinator and muzzle loading instructor, I have come to realize that a large portion of their ranks are composed of people who are quite ignorant of firearms maintenance and safety. Many do not clean their guns until they take them out to prepare for the next event often months later. Misfires, hang fires, and double charges (both intentional and unintentional) are common. Only a few of them can tell you the difference between 3Fg and Fg black powder. I once investigated when a reenactor's gun sounded way over charged and found he had loaded his cartridges with FFFFg black powder "to get a better report." We used to make the reenactors tie their loading rods in their muskets so they wouldn't be tempted to use them to add wadding. Several shot loading rods later we demanded they physically remove them before being allowed on the field. Reenactors complain about very restrictive rules making events less fun but without careful scrutiny and control, safety gets thrown out the window. I would not even allow reenactors to use their own made-up paper cartridges and inspect horns and pouches to prevent them from slipping in a couple of ear-splitting loads.

Thanks for the post; I had not thought about some reenactors not all being that knowledgeable about firearms. Interesting point - it's not like folks competing in say a rifle match. One note on wadding; my dad said there was a Shivaree back here in the hills in the 1920's. Newly married couple in a plank cabin, and some feller fired a muzzle loader which was just loaded with tick cloth wadding against the cabin wall. Wadding killed the bride.

[Steppenwolf]

I have two of them, both were inspected, tuned and proofed by a gunsmith and fifteen years with no problems.