223 cast bullets w/ ar15?

[Lloyd Smale]

guess im with the naysayers. I fooled with it a couple summers ago using linotype bullets pc coated and gas checked. time I spent making the bullets, the fact that I don't get lineotype for free and the cost of a gas check and then the fact you have to use an m die to open the necks and a factory crimp die to gently close them just adds time to loading. Then although I did get them to run perfectly I never got any better then a 2 inch 50 yard group out of any of my ars with any loads tried. I can buy bulk ball bullets cheap enough and get better accuracy with about any load then I can after weeks of load development time with each ar I have. Save my time for casting, coating and sizing pistol bullets. I proved to myself it can be done and in a pinch if I couldn't find ball bullets I could still roll beer cans with my ars but if im really looking for cheap ar fun I just grab one of my two 9mm ar15s. 5 grains of powder beats the **** out of 20 and accuracy with cast in them is easy to find. My full sized cmmg 9mm will shoot cast bullets into a 1 1/4 at a 100 yards and puts them into one hole at 50. My 9mm ar 4.5 inch pistol doesn't do near the same but it still does as well as my full sized 556 ars with cast. I want a 300 bo in the future and will try cast in that. Im sure it will be a lot more cast friendly then the finiky 556s are.

[sureYnot]

I load the 55 gr RCBS clone over 19 gr of H335...


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I'm glad to hear that. Planned on experimenting with some before trying some WC844 from gibrass. Good indication that it's worth my time. There's a lot of dough to be saved, using that stuff.

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[sukivel]

I'm glad to hear that. Planned on experimenting with some before trying some WC844 from gibrass. Good indication that it's worth my time. There's a lot of dough to be saved, using that stuff.

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I forgot to mention that through my testing I was looking for a load under the 2000 fps range that would cycle everytime, and it does both.


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[Mark1Mod0]

I too began the search for a decent AR15 cast boolit load that could get the job done for me. I think I have finally hit the nail on the head. I am a gunsmith by trade, and a bullet caster of almost 40 years, so I tend to try anything that seems to have merit. I cast and shoot about 30,000 rounds a year, so I think I might have forgotten more than most people know about the game. And forgetting stuff aint' always bad! Years before PC bullets came onto the scene, I was searching for the magic coatings that numerous bullet casters were coating their products with. I was trying desperately to cut my production times for making copious amounts of gun food for competition by not using traditional lubes in my star sizers. Finally, the PC info hit the web, and I was off to the races! The "forgetting" part comes from the fact that you can forget about most all of the traditional rules and things that you learned the old school way. The best phrase I ever read on a thread about PC'ing was "...PC changed EVERYTHING!". I agree. Back to the topic at hand... I started down the 223 path as many have with the Lee 55-225 6 cavity mold. I used safe low velocity loads working up to minimum loads that would reliably lock my M4 bolt open on the last round. I like to use surplus (cheap) gunpowder, and WCC844 is everywhere. I found that 20.0g of 844 behind the PC/GC Lee would cycle reliably in a 14.5 M4 piston variant. After my first 1k loads through the M4 (aka, 1K gas checks), it was still accurate enough to clang 10" steel 100% of the time at 100 yards with a zero magnification RDS, and there is ZERO leading of the barrel or the gas piston system. However, I found there was not enough "oomph" to reliably cycle some of my longer gas impingement systems with that load. So, back to the loading ladders.... I decided to run up a ladder of 1/2 grain incremental loads from the starting 20.0g, up to the suggested "book" loads 0f 25.0g suitable for 55g jacketed ammo. I figured that I would eventually find that spot where lead would eventually start to deposit in the bbl and bolt areas of the rifles. NOPE! Even at full loads the gun keeps hummin' like a jug! Additionally, at 24.5g I hit the sweet spot for one of my varmint AR rifles that grouped 5 round clusters into .92" and .96" groups. BTW, none of the loads went over 2.5 MOA at my 100 yard testing range. I'm done with ladders at this point! So, for those looking for the details, here ya' go: Use at your own discression with all the usual precautions of working up to this load:
FC cases, case mouths trimmed to length and inside neck chamfered to ease bullet insertion. WSR primers, 24.5g WCC844, COAL 2.13".
Boolit specs:
Lee cast 55-225 6 cavity gang mold. I use straight air cooled linotype (REAL lino with the headlines still readable on it!). At $3 a pound, its worth it to cast 15 pounds into 2000 52g slugs for $45. 1 light coat of HF red applied for 15 minutes in a dedicated HF vibratory tumbler. Toaster oven cured at 400 degrees for 20 minutes, then dumped and shaken to break up the clumps in an old wooden ammo crate before quickly cooling them down with a house fan. Hornady GC's seated and crimped in a Lee .225" push through sizing die (I used a .224 die the first 1K rounds) after PC'ing.

I know to those who are just starting out casting, this all seems like a lot of effort. But when you look at doing 2K or more at a single sitting, this effort is well worth the time and $ spent to squeeze the last cent out of your reloading dollars. Casting 2K takes about 2 hours. PC takes about 30 minutes. GC and sizing takes about 4 hours. TOTAL = 6.5 hours and +/- $100. So, ask yourself, "What's my time worth?". The CG's are the most work really, and the most expensive part of the process, going anywhere from 2.4 cents (Midway USA, on sale last month), up to 4 cents apiece just for the copper cups from Hornady (I will use no others, as they are far superior in my experience). YMMV....

[sureYnot]

edit: entered in error

[Dieselhorses]

I load the 55 gr RCBS clone over 19 gr of H335...


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I know this is a year later but yes, 19 grains H335 under a 55 grain Lee bullet works wonders in my Wyndham CF! Cycles every time and locks when done. Used PC bullets with NO gas checks. NO leading after careful examination in bore, breech or gas tube. Was getting under 2 inch groups at 50 yards with red dot scope.


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[Dapaki]

You can speed up elvis, it is comical somewhat but you get the info twice as fast . it is under settings, 2x is about right

Replying to an old thread: I laughed at this until I went back sand tried watching Elvis at x2 and Oh My Goodness! The video was actually watchable and I clearly understood him! So much so that I watched a few episodes that I just did not have the patience for.

I will be using his "low temp, heap" method for PC on the next batch.

.223 is the one problem I am having with PC cast boolits, shotgun patterns. With J-words, I can get 1 moa.

[tomme boy]

I will be using his "low temp, heap" method for PC on the next batch.

So you think some youtube backyard guy is smarter than the manufacturers on how to use powder coat? Good luck with that at rifle speeds

[Dapaki]

So you think some youtube backyard guy is smarter than the manufacturers on how to use powder coat? Good luck with that at rifle speeds

I rarely take the bait when some self righteous curmudgeon gets in my face but after trying Elvi's method and shooting a tray, I have to say that it did indeed work! The PC only had to make it down 22" of barrel and there was NO leading at all! No silver, just black on the brush and patches. Chrony averaged 2450, groups averaged 1.25" at 50 yards with a broke scope.

Maybe you could be less harsh and more willing to build up others than tear them down?

[Wolfdog91]

What BHN is everyone using ?

[mehavey]

You don't need anything harder than BN-15/Lyman #2/ALOX'd
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4472544

[bruce drake]

I’m impressed! You guys have really gotten those small Boolits to work. I’m still trying to get a 140gr to preform well in my 6.5mm Swede. Maybe I need to start reading up on .223 loads to get some new ideas.

plenty of folks have worked to get their Swedes into good cast bullet shots on this forum. Hit the search button and "fire away."

[donald150]

I'm glad to hear that. Planned on experimenting with some before trying some WC844 from gibrass. Good indication that it's worth my time. There's a lot of dough to be saved, using that stuff.

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Did you ever work up a good load with the WC844? Would you by chance be using the 225-61 "Elvis" mold?


I just recently purchased the 225-61 "Elvis" mold and cast up some last night. I have more WC844 than any other rifle powder so if I can make some magic happen with that ill be excited.

[MikeSlater]

Cast, checked and coated. Runs great in my AR rifle and pistol. Win748 and cfe223.

[Larry Gibson]

"it was still accurate enough to clang 10" steel 100% of the time at 100 yards "

If that satisfies one's needs then PC'd cast in a 223/5/56 AR or other gas gun then perhaps PC has, indeed, "changed everything".....for some anyway. For those that just "blast" or shoot in short range 3 gun matches or shoot zombie targets that perhaps may be acceptable......and that's fine. For me a 100% 10 moa at 100 yards load is just not acceptable.

With my standard lubed cast bullet loads which run 2-3 moa for accuracy (20 shot groups as i mostly use 20 round magazines) at 2100 fps I could hit my 10" gong at 200 yards pretty much 100% of the time out of my 12" twist AR15 [seems there's always that 'flyer" either caused by me or "FM"]. However, even with bulk milsurp 55 FMJs could hit the same 10" gong at 300 yards 100% of the time and 95% + at 400 yards with full powered 5.56 level loads at 3150 fps giving 1.5 +/- moa accuracy out of the 20" barrel. Of course with quality commercial jacketed bullet the accuracy is even better. My AR has a non magnifying EoTech on it btw. Figuring the cost of my time, alloy and GCs to cast bullets vs just buying the bulk milsurp the cast run about half the cost of the milsurp jacketed but then if I figure in the time/$s I save using the milsurp FMJs it seems pretty even up to me. And besides, I have a M261 device for my ARs so I can shoot 22LR in them anytime with little to no fuss.

Now before anyone gets a wedgie please understand I love to cast bullets and to shoot them. I shoot lots of cast bullets in my bolt action and SS 22 CFs including 223 Rem. I just don't see any advantage to shooting cast in an AR or other gas gun, especially with a fast twist, unless one simply wants too. You want to? Then that's perfectly acceptable to me. I don't want to so I hope that's acceptable to you.......

[Hanzy4200]

My take. Yes it is doable. No, its not worth the hassle. The performance you will get is not comparable to j words. .223 relys on volocity. Downloading it, even to 2,600 fps, is a big compromise. Nice to have a mold in the collection so you have a option, but its really not feasible.

[sukivel]

My take. Yes it is doable. No, its not worth the hassle. The performance you will get is not comparable to j words. .223 relys on volocity. Downloading it, even to 2,600 fps, is a big compromise. Nice to have a mold in the collection so you have a option, but its really not feasible.

Nicely said!


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[sigep1764]

It is a compromise to download down to 2000fps in my loadings. It is more involved than say 38 special. However, once an accurate load is found, its simply lube and check on the Star, then load in the 550. The brass barely grows in the lower pressure loads so trimming is kept to every third load or so. My brass is also getting loaded 8 to 10 times before there are any issues. And the cost of loading with lower powder charges and lead boolits is keeping me plinking. I don't compete in anything other than bettering myself from the previous shooting sessions and learning shooting positions. What has been said in other posts is true, except that casting for 223 is viable for me in my experience. It all comes down to what each person wants to do. There is no wrong way in this case.

[Rizzo]

My take. Yes it is doable. No, its not worth the hassle. The performance you will get is not comparable to j words. .223 relys on volocity. Downloading it, even to 2,600 fps, is a big compromise. Nice to have a mold in the collection so you have a option, but its really not feasible.

I have to agree with that.
I did a bit of casting and testing for my AR15 and initially the "accuracy" was terrible.
The accuracy was like 10" to 12" groups around 2700 fps at 75 yards.

I was involved in a discussion here about casting for an AR15 and was advised to slow it down.
Also, some did report good accuracy with their method.
This included being very picky at picking the cast bullets (culling) and also weight sorting them...which I did.

I then made up a series of loads to check for a better accuracy.
My loads took me to a point where the rifle would not cycle on some of the loads and some just over the point where it would cycle.
Bottom line was a load that gave me better accuracy, but not to my liking.
Like mentioned, 2700 fps down to 2000 fps was quite a compromise that I did not want to do, for marginal accuracy.
I went back to reloading with 55 gr. FMJ bullets for better accuracy.

It was a fun project, but frustrating.

[sureYnot]

I have to agree with that.
I did a bit of casting and testing for my AR15 and initially the "accuracy" was terrible.
The accuracy was like 10" to 12" groups around 2700 fps at 75 yards.

I was involved in a discussion here about casting for an AR15 and was advised to slow it down.
Also, some did report good accuracy with their method.
This included being very picky at picking the cast bullets (culling) and also weight sorting them...which I did.

I then made up a series of loads to check for a better accuracy.
My loads took me to a point where the rifle would not cycle on some of the loads and some just over the point where it would cycle.
Bottom line was a load that gave me better accuracy, but not to my liking.
Like mentioned, 2700 fps down to 2000 fps was quite a compromise that I did not want to do, for marginal accuracy.
I went back to reloading with 55 gr. FMJ bullets for better accuracy.

It was a fun project, but frustrating.

Answer to that is a heavier pill.
Worked for me, anyway.

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