Bullets to weak - coat them and they will work???

[jayjay1]

Hey GONRA,
that´s an interesting argument there.

Well yes, I do use range scrap for my boolits and mix it with some print letters if I need it harder.

Of course I´m fluxing the lead several times, three times minimum before I´m casting with it.
But there is still some fine dust in the pot, what I realize every time when I´m ladling some molten lead from my melting pot into my casting pot.
As the lead sinks in the pot, there is appearing some dust on the melt, coming from the rim and spreading to the middle, the more I´m ladling out.

It is very fine dust, no crumbs or so.

Is it proven, that this "reams" out the barrel faster than shooting jacketed ones?

[Shingle]

I have heard of the same issue with the 124gr.tc. The 124gr RN tumble lube was always good to me even with short lead barrels.

[jayjay1]

Finally...

DougGuy was right on point!

I´ve ordered some FMJ bullets from L.O.S., all of them 123gr. and .356", a FP (TC), HP (TC) and a RN.
They came yesterday evening.

I´m just coming out of my basement, figuring out the C.O.L.s and so on.

OAL of the barrel is exactly 5,000".
So I dropped each bullet into the chamber, fixing them with an empty brass and measuring the length from the barrel´s mouth to the tip of the bullet.

Then I made some dummies and made the "plonk" test with them, gtg.

After that I was loading them up into the magazine.
The RNs were to long for the mag, so I shortened their C.O.L. a bit and tried it again, worked.

After the magazine test I inserted the magazine into the pistol and repeated them by hand.
Inspecting every one of them with a magnifying glass, they looked good.

Marked the bullet shoulders of the dummies with a black marker, repeated them again, everything fine.

So, all three FMJ bullets can be seated out pretty far, the RN the most of all, like written, to long for the magazine.

They feed without any issue, gtg C.O.L.s, no markings from the lands, enough powder room to play with and sitting deep enough in the brass to be fixed and centered fine.

So yes, it is about those 2 or 3 1/1000 of an inch in dia., what causes the problems.
And yes, it is exactly how DougGuy prophesised it.
There is a kind of a ring at the front end of the chamber, smaller in dia., before the rifling begins.

Either I´m shooting FMJs only or I will have to ream the chamber to be able to shoot my self-rolled pills.

I will load some of the FMJs to test them.

Thanks guys.

All of you have earned a beer or two.

[Willbird]

I guess I would try a cast LEE round nose first .

The "ring" you are seeing is the throat which is closer to the case than the leade ?? I know the XD pistols have a reputation for having a very steep leade angle, some have reamed them to a shallower leade and gotten better cast bullet results afterward. Also many 9x19 have a very fast rifling twist for the bullet weight. Some as fast as 1 turn in 25CM (around 10" for us US folks).

https://bisonballistics.com/rails/ac...diagram@2x.png

Pure lead bullets or nearly pure lead might be fine at 1050 fps....but maybe not in a really fast rifling twist ?? The faster twist accentuates any imprecision between the geometric center of the bullet and it's center of gravity.

[Dragonheart]

I own several 9MM Walther's and have never had even close to a .358" barrel, but I guess anything is possible. When I slug a barrel I water capture a fired bullet so I get true measure. I would suggest doing the same and slugging the barrel again just to make sure.
As far as the powder coating I have fired pure lead at 1400 fps with no problems, but that is a properly coated, cured and sized bullet.

[edctexas]

The polygonal rifling can work well with cast boolits. But the devil is in measuring the slug and deciding what the fit is. I have three H&Ks and all shoot cast well. But it was a difficult time finding the right size cast boolit. The 9mm likes .3585 as the sizing after powder coat. I can also shoot Ben's red lubed rounds. The case expansion can be tricky because of the case taper in 9mm. I use an expander from NOE on the cases.

Keep at it JayJay1. You have a good pistol, now to find that combination that equals jacketed performance.

Ed C

[jayjay1]

Hey guys,
a lot of thoughts and infos inhere, thanks for your great support, I´m honored and very thankful for that.

So, @Willbird, I hear ya, but which of those 3 round nose bullets do you mean?
What I need is a bullet, who has its shoulder (point where the ogyve goes into full bullet dia.) as far back as possible.
The chamber of the Walther, or the throat (which looks like a cylindric ring for me), allows nothing more than .356" in front of the case mouth.
This leads to the issue, that I have to seat my own cast boolits very deep into the case, which means that the boolits get heavily downsized at the bottom and the powder room is getting to small.
I´m having the 120 TC from LEE and a 145 RN FP from MP molds on hands, both are leading to those issues in the Walther (but not in my CZ).

Maybe this "ring" is the secret for the outstanding precision of this "service pistol".
Maybe it is the throat which is slightly conic.
Fact is, that you can´t seat anything further out than to the case mouth which is bigger in dia. than .356".

So, which of the LEE round nose boolits has its shoulder settled more to the bottom than the .356-120 TC?
Which one do you mean?

@Dragonheart:
The Q5 Match Champion is pretty new on the market.
It has an outstanding precision, you can compare it to any custom gun in 9mm that I´ve ever shot.
I had 5-shot-groups slightly above 1" at 25m settled the gun on a sandbag and with cheap bulk factory ammo.
Maybe they changed something at this one, I don´t know, but my slug came out with .358" in the corners of the polygon.

I´ve tried some pure lead boolits, which smeared all over the rifling.
So then I casted some with a mixture of print letter lead and range srap, coated them with HITEK.
The rifling was not that much of a mess after shooting them, but they were downsized at the bottom like the others, the seating depth didn´t change of course, and precision was poor for this pistol.

@Ed C:
I´m having custom made powder funnels for my Dillon 650 from lathesmith here on board for all of my calibers.
(The originals from Dillon were all to narrow.)
They work absolutey great and without them, in the begining, I always had issues with in-the-cases-downsized-bullets, because I´m doing mostly range scrap.
But, thanks to latesmith that issue is solved and long gone.

And also I´m having different sizers for my Star sizer, again, thanks to lathesmith and praise him, in .3575" and .3585".
But I´m always using the .3585" one for 9mm, with very good results until today.

I´m coating with HITEK, works great.

And I´m using a friction crimp, which might be even a bit more saving to the cast boolits than a taper crimp, again with great success.

I blackmarked some dummies with different seating depths, which made it totally clear to me, that the issue comes from the throat (or ring : ) ) which doesn´t allow anything but smaller than .357" in dia. in front of the case mouth.

So, either I can find a boolit which has a short full dia. rear end, I will shoot only FMJs or I will have to ream the throat-ring-chamber-thingy.

Salut to all of you!

[ioon44]

jayjay1 I have a few questions after reading this thread, as I have the Q5 match with poly barrel and a 4 " PPQ with the poly barrel and two other 5"PPQ's with rifled barrels all shoot Hi-tek coated cast from 6-2-92 alloy with great results, soft lead in 9 mm never seems to work.
My two poly barrels have longer throats than the rifled barrels and I can shoot 147 gr FP .3575" sized bullets seated to 1.50 OAL, the rifled barrels I have to seat at 1.15" OAL.

My poly barrels measure .356" using pure lead to slug the barrels and the rifled barrels run around .355".

What alloy did you use to slug your barrel? any thing other than pure lead will not give you a correct measurement.

What do you mean by friction crimp? I use taper crimp just enough to remove the belling which measures .377" at the taper crimp.

The PPQ's are great guns don't give up.

[jayjay1]

Hi ioon44,
I´ve used a 145gr. MP Molds boolit without coating, made out of range scrap which has some tin and antimon, but normaly very less.
And I´ve ordered Cerrosafe to pour out the chamber and the barrel, it should be here in a few days.

A friction crimp is a taper crimp without making the slightest crimp at the case mouth, what you normaly do by using a taper crimp.
You measure the case at the middle of the seated bullet and crimp the case mouth to that dia.
So the bullet is only held because of friction, no crimp at all.

It is widely known in the German reloading scene, almost in every German reloading book it is recommended.
It is supposed not to damage the bullet at all, and as they say, the pulling resistance of the bullet is to be as high or even higher as with the tapper crimp.
I´m using this kind of crimp in all my pistol calibers (not revolvers) since many years.

[Willbird]

Hey guys,
a lot of thoughts and infos inhere, thanks for your great support, I´m honored and very thankful for that.

So, @Willbird, I hear ya, but which of those 3 round nose bullets do you mean?
What I need is a bullet, who has its shoulder (point where the ogyve goes into full bullet dia.) as far back as possible.
The chamber of the Walther, or the throat (which looks like a cylindric ring for me), allows nothing more than .356" in front of the case mouth.
This leads to the issue, that I have to seat my own cast boolits very deep into the case, which means that the boolits get heavily downsized at the bottom and the powder room is getting to small.
I´m having the 120 TC from LEE and a 145 RN FP from MP molds on hands, both are leading to those issues in the Walther (but not in my CZ).

Maybe this "ring" is the secret for the outstanding precision of this "service pistol".
Maybe it is the throat which is slightly conic.
Fact is, that you can´t seat anything further out than to the case mouth which is bigger in dia. than .356".

So, which of the LEE round nose boolits has its shoulder settled more to the bottom than the .356-120 TC?
Which one do you mean?

.

Salut to all of you!

I would look at the .365-102-1R or the 356-125-2R...the 102 is the shorter of the two.

My XD-45 pistol will not properly feed any bullet that has a semi-wadcutter shoulder. It even views the nose-shoulder junction of a truncated cone bullet with deep suspicion . So I feel your pain there.

Bill

[ioon44]

Friction crimp is what I would call neck tension, I set my taper crimp die to just remove the bell from the case so it does't crimp onto the bullet, this important when using Hi-Tek coated bullets.

I still didn't catch what alloy you used when slugging barrel?

[jayjay1]

@ioon44

Hi ioon44,
I´ve used a 145gr. MP Molds boolit without coating, made out of range scrap which has some tin and antimon, but normaly very less.
...

[ioon44]

OK, I did not connect the 145 gr range scrap bullet as what you slugged your barrel with. It would be interesting to see what a pure lead bullet would measure in your barrel.

[Dragonheart]

I do not own a Q5, but I do have a 4" & 5" PPQ and both are extremely accurate out of the box. I would suggest doing a re-slug of the barrel, just as a double check. This is the procedure I use and it has served me well over the years:

When I slug my barrels I want to measure a bullet actually fired from my gun. To achieve this I fill a plastic garbage can 30+ gallons with water. I float a thin foam floor mat on top of the water. I put the lid, which has a small cut in the center, and lock it down. My bullets are PC pure lead with a very very light powder charge. All I am trying to do is get the bullet to clear the barrel and a primer alone is not enough. I fire straight down into the can and the water stops the bullet with absolutely no damage. The foam mat eliminate the splash. I now have a bullet or several, to get precise measurements. I size my PC bullets approximately 001+" larger than the groove measurement.

As far as my chamber size I did castings using Cerrosafe years ago so I can see and measure my chamber.

I measure the length of travel to the lands of every bullet I am going to use out of each gun. I use this measurement to set my bullet's seating depth. Some bullet designs will be completely out of the case before they engage the rifling, while others have a lot less tolerance. Bullet travel/seating depth has a huge effect on accuracy. I have had group sizes cut in half by just altering the seating depth of the bullet. To keep from over pressure some jump is required, but typically the shorter the jump to the lands the better accuracy, so I seat as far out as possible while maintaining function.

Additionally, the case trim to length make a difference. For 9mm I have found .750" to be ideal. Shorter case lengths and the group tends to increase. Obviously, longer case length can cause pressure problems. But there are many ole hand loaders that will proudly tell you they never trim a case.

The Q should be a lot of fun you just need to find out what it likes.

[jayjay1]

@Dragonheart
Mostly I´m doing the exact same procedure you do.

Shooting a bullet into water is not possible in the EUdSSR, like some other fun things too - please don´t ask...

I have ordered Cerrosafe, like I said.
My plan is to pour out the chamber, throat and barrel.

I have no experience with this stuff, but hope that this is possible.

Otherwise, I will slug a pure lead bullet, like ioon44 is suggesting.

Just because I´m curious:
Your PPQ´s should have somewhat the same barrel like mine (polygone?).
How were your measurements?

[Dragonheart]

It's a shame you can't do a water capture. I live in a subdivision so I do mine on an enclosed patio, but to make it even quieter I have a foam lined bucket with a hole in the bottom. I set the bucket on top of a trash can lid and with the gun in the bucket the report is minimized; nail guns are louder.

The get the best cast heat the chamber up some so there is not as much thermal shock. A micro torch seems to work well for this. I have a cheap Lee electric pot I purchased at a garage sale just for melting the Cerrocast; it melts at a low temperature. Use a silicon plug with a pull to limit the cast as you will need to tap hard to drive out the cast and you do not want the cast longer than necessary and just into the rifling should tell you want. You want to remove the silicon plug so you get good contact with rod to the cast to tap it free.

I went back to check my 9mm slugs, which I fire 3 from every gun. All were between .355 -.3655, which includes S&W, Glock's, Walther's, HK's & Sig's so you can see why I think there is a problem with your slug. My PPQ 4" was .365" and my PPQ 5" was .3653" my PPS .365" as close as I can read the micrometer. My micrometer was checked with a test gauge before taking the readings.

As far as the polygonal rifling if you are using jacketed or PC bullets there is no problem. A lubed bullet is relying on the hardness of the alloy, and regardless, the polygonal rifling is more aggressive so alloy is going to be deposited inside the barrel. A properly coated and cured PC creates a polymer jacket that is hard, tough, elastic and better bonded than plating. It seals and protects the bullet's core like a jacket, but unlike copper or lubed alloy it does not add to the fouling. But note "properly coated & cured" and that is typically not what short cut PC methods produce. The polymer undergoes a chemical change brought about by time and temperature, when either is short changed so are the benefits of the polymer.

I haven't bought a bullet since 2012 when I first started PC and that is mainly what all my barrels including the Polygonal barrels are fed. Good luck with your Q.

[Willbird]

@Dragonheart
Mostly I´m doing the exact same procedure you do.

Shooting a bullet into water is not possible in the EUdSSR, like some other fun things too - please don´t ask...

I have ordered Cerrosafe, like I said.
My plan is to pour out the chamber, throat and barrel.

I have no experience with this stuff, but hope that this is possible.

Otherwise, I will slug a pure lead bullet, like ioon44 is suggesting.

Just because I´m curious:
Your PPQ´s should have somewhat the same barrel like mine (polygone?).
How were your measurements?

About catching bullets . Here we have a product sold to stuff pillows a person might make, they call it "polyfill"

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fairfield...YaAga6EALw_wcB

it is just polyester fiber, Well if you stuff that into a long tube about 6" in diameter, then shoot a bullet into it, the polyester fiber will wrap the bullet like a snowball, and slow it down undamaged. And it is very hot when you unwrap it, about like a fresh cast bullet where you need to roll it around in your hand to hold it for long.

I got the idea as a kid after shooting old couch cushions and finding the 22 bullets wrapped up like that after going through the cushions. And too I read where old time ballistics experts used "cotton waste" for the same purpose.

[popper]

Maybe this "ring" is the secret for the outstanding precision of this "service pistol" Or as the 9 is a tapered case, it is to insure proper HS on the mouth? That way the chamber can be straight cut vs taper cut. My guess, harder water dropped PCd should solve the accuracy problem.

[Petander]

Yes, I know, I´m just doing a friction crimp.

But I pulled the bullet, it is downsized at the bottom.

Sounds like you found the problem here, bullet gets swaged to undersize when seating. A larger expander will help - how do you expand the case now?