reproduce a Factory 38 Special 200gr load ?

[Bigslug]

I was trying to duplicate the British .38 load with that bullet.

In a .357 case and a 2" barrel, 3.2 grains of Unique chronoed at 561 fps, and 3.6 grains at 635fps. Unfortunately, that was in my early casting days, so I couldn't accurately tell you what they were for hardness (probably about 12BHN), but fortunately I was able to shoot a calibrated FBI-spec Jell-O block with both - the 18" of gelatin wasn't an obstacle; the hard rubber backer was what stopped them.

[Eascu]

Metallic Cartridge Reloading 2nd edition lists 200 grain cast. 700X max 3 gr, 7625 max 3.5, 4756 max 4.3, 231 max 3.8, 800X max 4.6 for 38 Special. For 357, 700X 4.3, 7625 5.1, 4756 6.2, 4227 12.5, 231 5.5, HP38 4.2, H4227 12.0, 800X 7.5 max. I'm using 4 grains of HP38 under the Lee mold in 357 and I'm really happy with it in my Marlin lever action.


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[RED BEAR]

yes i actually do use the lee 200gr for the 35 REMINGTON. they shoot great it surprised me at the mild recoil out of a rossi snub nose.

[Groo]

Groo here
The trick to the 200gr bullets is to keep them SLOW......
If you speed them up the barrel twist increases the RPM's to the point that the bullet
will not yaw , and instead just drill through.
The bullet is very soft so will not go through a car door etc. well.
Take the same weight bullet in hard cast and speed up the rpms and it will go through both doors.

[beagle]

I did some work years back with the 200 grain bullet in the .38 Special for the old 200 grain "Police load". Check castpics/Cast in the .38 Special./beagle

[smkummer]

My Lyman No.45 manual has some hotter loads maybe. 4.1grs of unique with the 358430 and 9 or 9.5grs of 2400. and about the same amount of IMR-4227.

I have loaded this warmer 2400 load for my colt E medium frames ( official police/ officers model/original trooper). This is a stout powerful load in the power range of 40 S&W with maybe better penetration if needed. The bullets almost protrude from the cylinder which has to look intimidating from the wrong end. In the 4” trooper 38, it feels just right.

[JoeJames]

The British 200 grain load you spoke of is a 38 S&W round and not 38 Special. There was a 200 grain blunt round nose 200 grain lead bullet load in the 38 Special that was called (I think) a Super Police Load.

Frankly these heavy blunt nose 38 Special loads don't have much going for them. I do use for house defense a 220 grain full wadcutter 38 Special load. I really don't know if they are any better in actual use than a 150 grain full wadcutter as either will sail through an ordinary human being.

That is a very interesting boolit - 200 grain is getting up close to the weight of a 44 Special, and the meplat is wider than the meplat of a Keith type 240 grain 44 Special Semi-Wadcutter.

[Hi-Speed]

Chronographed 3.5 grs Unique and 198 gr Magnus blunt round nose (has same profile as WW 200 gr Super Police bullet) in my S&W 642 1 7/8 inch barrel - avg velocity was approx. 575 FPS. This is approximately the same velocity achieved by others with the WW Super Police factory load in snub nose revolvers.

[Texas by God]

I remember an old Dean Grennel article where they shot a junk car with the Western 200 gr .38Special loads from a snub nose revolver. It wouldn't break the glass and just left divots in the door. Someone present quipped "Halt- or I'll scratch your paint!"

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[onelight]

I remember an old Dean Grennel article where they shot a junk car with the Western 200 gr .38Special loads from a snub nose revolver. It wouldn't break the glass and just left divots in the door. Someone present quipped "Halt- or I'll scratch your paint!"

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[Bigslug]

Edit: It's ALIIIIIIVE!

[9.3X62AL]

Erik--don't say "Zombie Thread Repost" like it's a bad thing.

The late Bruce Bannister kind of wondered aloud at what I was doing with the old British 38/200 rounds when I was messing about with NEI #169A at 675 FPS from the Webley-Enfield and the S&W M&P. He had seen some results of RCMP gunfire with those rounds against a fleeing carload of robbery suspects, and the bullets just ricocheted from the slanted windshields and rear windows of the suspect vehicles. Not real reassuring, that.

The 200 grain bullets take on real life when fired in a 357 Magnum revolver or rifle, though. Lyman #358430 is VERY accurate, and if cast as a soft point I would take it deer hunting without hesitation--and have done so. The deer didn't cooperate much. The 180-200 grain+ bullet weights in 357 Magnum REALLY change the game afield.

[pettypace]

Has anyone tried the Lee 358 200 RF designed for the .35 Rem? It looks like it would come close to duplicating that OK Highway Patrol load, but with the more effective RNFP profile? If so, what load did you use? What load do you think would deliver the 800 fps from a 4" Smith? I have a new 5" 8-shot 627 that would make a good platform for such a load. GF

I've loaded a handful of the Lee 358 200 RF for testing in a J-frame snubby. Shot them as cast, no GC, and tumbled in liquid alox. I started with 2.8 of RedDot which averaged 535 ft/s and ended with a stiff load of (old) Unique at 628 ft/s. (Hatcher cites 623 ft/s from a snubby for the original factory Super Police load).

I didn't shoot beyond 10 yards. But at that range, both loads shot high, with "adequate" accuracy and obvious tipping on the paper.

I got a chance to fire two of the Unique loads into a block of calibrated Clear Ballistic gel. The first shot veered off up and left and exited the gel at a depth of about 12", The second shot also veered off in the same direction, flipped ends, and stopped base-forward at 13" of penetration.

Without tumbling, predicted penetration of that bullet, even at just 600 ft/s, is about 30". So flipping end for end took a lot of steam out of it. How that translates into self defense effectiveness, I don't know.

I also don't know just what that bullet would do at 800 ft/s. It it straightens out and doesn't tumble it should penetrate plenty. Probably make a big mess if it still tumbles.

[FergusonTO35]

The late Bruce Bannister kind of wondered aloud at what I was doing with the old British 38/200 rounds when I was messing about with NEI #169A at 675 FPS from the Webley-Enfield and the S&W M&P. He had seen some results of RCMP gunfire with those rounds against a fleeing carload of robbery suspects, and the bullets just ricocheted from the slanted windshields and rear windows of the suspect vehicles. Not real reassuring, that.

What I have to wonder about, is most of the .38-200's bad reputation due to the FMJ rounds that were actually used against the enemy? It takes more energy to push a jacketed slug down the bore than a boolit, meaning that the FMJ probably lost alot of the already modest velocity when fired in the .38 S&W. Add in possibly generous barrel-cylinder gaps, and you have a recipe for failure. Does anyone know if the Canadian police were using commercial .38-200 ammo, or old milsurp FMJ? I would think the latter.

[Outpost75]

The 620 fps from a .38 S&W snubby with 2.2 of Bullseye is a good number. I load my Colt a bit warmer than that, but don't shoot it alot with that load. Accurate 36-190T cast 1:40 tin-lead.

Attachment 239528Attachment 239529

[Larry Gibson]

I shot myself once with the Remington "Man Stopper" 200 gr police load.........back in the day Richard Davis of Second Chance vests provided numerous test swatches of the Kevlar material to me to test prior to purchase of vests for our PD. I was testing different ammunition from different handguns at 3 feet from the muzzle. The test patches were taped to a bundle of magazines 12" thick. All was going well until I shot the 200 gr 38 SPL load from a 2" M10 S&W. The bullet did not penetrate a single layer of Kevlar and bounced back and hit me.......didn't even break the skin.......I haven't been too enthusiastic with a 200 gr 38 SPL load since........

[pettypace]

I shot myself once with the Remington "Man Stopper" 200 gr police load.........back in the day Richard Davis of Second Chance vests provided numerous test swatches of the Kevlar material to me to test prior to purchase of vests for our PD. I was testing different ammunition from different handguns at 3 feet from the muzzle. The test patches were taped to a bundle of magazines 12" thick. All was going well until I shot the 200 gr 38 SPL load from a 2" M10 S&W. The bullet did not penetrate a single layer of Kevlar and bounced back and hit me.......didn't even break the skin.......I haven't been too enthusiastic with a 200 gr 38 SPL load since........

You didn't by any chance try a full-blast 38/44 Keith bullet did you? I'd be interested to know if that would break the skin. And if so, on which side of the Kevlar.

[Larry Gibson]

You didn't by any chance try a full-blast 38/44 Keith bullet did you? I'd be interested to know if that would break the skin. And if so, on which side of the Kevlar.

Not that I recall, but I did test several +P 38 SPLs and many different 357 Magnum rounds including my own "old" 357 magnum loads; a 125 Winchester HP at 1600+ fps and the 358156 at 1400+ fps. They would penetrate (actually just spread the Kevlar strands and meld into them usually not more than half way through) a bit but only the "Man Stopper" bounced off! The so called Teflon "cop killers", because they supposedly would penetrate vests, did not penetrate the 2nd Chance vests completely. Even Keith's load of 22 gr 2400 under the 429421 at 1400 fps out of a 6" M29 failed to penetrate completely.....sure would have hurt like heck though as it was the only load that knocked the bundle of magazines off the bench........

There was only 2 rounds out of handguns that penetrated the vest patches at all; the pointed 357 magnum armor piercing round and the 22 Magnum solid. Both of those poked out the backside of the test swatch about 1/6" so they might have "broke skin".

[RedHawk357Mag]

I wonder if anyone could possibly give me some information about this 3585430 bullet. I am looking for bullet seating depth. Length of cartridge plus length of projectile minus loaded cartridge overall length. Thank you. The 200 grain version.

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[LIMPINGJ]

Larry I tried to send you a PM but says your mailbox is full.