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Thread: reproduce a Factory 38 Special 200gr load ?

  1. #1
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    reproduce a Factory 38 Special 200gr load ?

    Long ago there was a 38 Special 200gr load that may have been trying to copy the British revolver. I am not sure if that is the origin or not.
    I would like to try to load some Lyman 358 430 200 gr RN for my two Smiths. I have a little data, Bullseye, Unique and IMR 4227 and a few others in the Lyman #45 guide.

    Do any of you have experience with this kind of load?
    I am NOT looking for earthquake - muzzle blast performance but rather a mild pleasing thud.

    Yesterday I tried 10 loaded with 3 grains of HP-38. They were fine and shot about 4" high at 25 yards in my fixed sight Smith M-10

    What do you think should be the next load?
    Chill Wills

  2. #2
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    I have an old 1990 load manual for Hercules powder, note: NOT Alliant. They list 3.0gr Bullseye@ 760FPS, 2.8gr Red Dot@ 725FPS, 3.1 Green Dot@ 750FPS, 3.6gr Unique@780FPS, 3.8gr Herco@785 FPS, 5.3gr Blue Dot@850FPS, and lastly 7.0gr 2400@870FPS. This is all 38 Special data with a 200 grain lead RN bullet. These are MAX recommended loads, use at your own risk!

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    Chill Wills,

    The old-school 200 grain lead boolit at >750FPS is definitely A KILLER.
    (When I was a young deputy with the SD, that was the standard load that was issued to our street deputies for the department-issue Colt's Official Police revolvers. - The "old guys" thought it was FUNNY to send me, as the "young college kid" to as many autopsies as possible. = They didn't know that I spent a good portion of my boyhood/teenaged years at a funeral home.)
    Only the bodies of little kids, "floaters" & burn victims bother me a LOT.

    A round into the K5 area is MUCH more destructive than most people would guess, as the heavy/long for diameter bullet tumbles inside the torso, expends all of the energy therein & "makes a real mess".

    For self-defense, I like the 200 grain SWC in front of 3.5 grains of Unique.

    yours, tex

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The British 200 grain load you spoke of is a 38 S&W round and not 38 Special. There was a 200 grain blunt round nose 200 grain lead bullet load in the 38 Special that was called (I think) a Super Police Load.

    Frankly these heavy blunt nose 38 Special loads don't have much going for them. I do use for house defense a 220 grain full wadcutter 38 Special load. I really don't know if they are any better in actual use than a 150 grain full wadcutter as either will sail through an ordinary human being.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 003.jpg  
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I have a similar load using 3 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special or 2.2 grains in the .38 S&W,

    but I use the Accurate 36-190T flatnosed bullet

    Attachment 227546 which is both more accurate and more effective.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    I have two boxes of Winchester 200gr 38sp with lead bullet. From box I would say they are from the
    70s or 80s. I have never shot any bullets this heavy in a 38. I might try them in a m27 just for grins.

  7. #7
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    I loaded a 207 grn bullet in 357 or my wife to use for bowling pins, wasn't a full magnum load but a nice load that did really well taking pins off the table. Bullet was barely stable and when it hit it tumbled transferring much more energy. These fell between 38 spl and full house magnum loads

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    if memory serves me right the original british load ( they called it a man stopper ) was a 38 sw with 200 grain bullet at 600+ fps. this is very easy to duplicate in 38 special. and heard from another member on here who was a detective or something like that that said these type rounds were very effective. i really like them thought they might have a lot of recoil but were surprisingly mild when shot from a snub nose rossi. i was loading to stated velocity of a little over 700 fps. i really liked these loads and were very accurate. used red dot and unique for them.

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    Char-Gar,

    Fyi, the British, due to a pre-war shortage of firearms, received/used a lot of BOTH .38 S&W & .38 SPL Colt's & S&W revolvers, under Lend-Lease. = SOME were US Armed Forces revolvers (Like the Colt's Commando) & OTHERS were "commercial buys" that were the same as the usual civilian-type Colt & S&W revolvers of that era.

    YES, the .38spl 200grain load was called: the .38 Super Police.
    (The UK Home Guard received/used a lot of the .38 SPL "Super Police" LRN ammo, too.)

    Note: Because of lead bullets being unacceptable for wartime use, the Brits changed the lead 200 grain bullet for a 173 FMJ bullet, in both .38 S&W & in .38 SPL.

    yours, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 09-22-2018 at 04:56 PM. Reason: typos

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    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  11. #11
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    I tried some 175gr with Unique using a load I found in the Lymans 1958 Cast Bullet Handbook as well as a Blue Dot load using a similar bullet and although they worked, I found them to be dirty enough that I won't revisit that with powder in that burn range. Some other powder may work better.
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    To All,

    Fwiw, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol & OSBI years ago used a 220grain LHP at about 800FPS out of their .357MAG S&W 4" Model 28 revolvers, which they described as "very effective".

    yours, tex

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Any .38 Special load data is probably going to hit high with that bullet. Large bullets are going to be moving slower, and slow bullets are going to be in the barrel longer while the gun is recoiling, therefore they'll hit higher.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    I found these bullets to be very effective in short barrel .38 special revolvers. I have cast my bullet with a NOE MKI 200 gr blunt nose bullet. I found that with 2.5 grains of 700X they will start to tumble on immediate impact with a cardboard target. I tested these rounds at 10 yards into a cardboard target with another cardboard target 5 yards behind the first. The rounds do indeed tumble on impact. A main torso shot will not be a through and through shot and will stay in the body.

  15. #15
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    Has anyone tried the Lee 358 200 RF designed for the .35 Rem? It looks like it would come close to duplicating that OK Highway Patrol load, but with the more effective RNFP profile? If so, what load did you use? What load do you think would deliver the 800 fps from a 4" Smith? I have a new 5" 8-shot 627 that would make a good platform for such a load. GF

  16. #16
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    Thanks to Outpost75 for showing the photos of the 38 "Super Police" loadings above. These are my first views of the cartridge. I now also see where Lyman #358-430 (195 grain RN) got its inspiration.

    #358-430 was one of my first mould purchases back in 1981. I have given it considerable use, and in 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers it has been quite accurate--sufficiently so to whack jackrabbits and a few coyotes with good effect. In 38 Special at 700 FPS, the critters show ragged exit wounds that may indicate bullet-tumbling. The 38 S&W/NEI #169A combination at about the same velocity shows similar indicia. The 357 slugs (running between 1000 and 1200 FPS) appear to drive straight-through, though this observation has a small sampling population--~20 or so. (Winchester's load data for WW-296 of 12.4 grains under a 200 grain lead bullet produces 1180-1220 FPS in my Ruger Bishawk's 7.5" barrel, and just under 1100 FPS in my 686 x 4". FWIW.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  17. #17
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    Western Powders has Load Data for 230 grain WC bullets by Badman & Penn bullets.

    The Penn Website has load data for loading 357.

    You end up shooting a bullet the weight of a 45 ACP but elongated and more likely to tumble on impact.

  18. #18
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    Thank you all for taking the time to respond! There is some interesting information here.

    ShooterAZ especially good of you to take the time to post these additional Hercules loads. I have two Hercules LGS counter hand outs from 1980 and 1981 and 170grs bullet is as heavy as they listed so it is great to have your info.

    My Lyman No.45 manual has some hotter loads maybe. 4.1grs of unique with the 358430 and 9 or 9.5grs of 2400. and about the same amount of IMR-4227.Click image for larger version. 

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    The look of 200 grain RN loaded up does take you by surprise or did me.

    I have loaded a few more sample loads with 3.3grs of Hecro and 3.2grs of Unique as well as 3.8 grs of Unique. I did not want to try the Lyman full max load of 4.1 grs of Unique at this point/ I am not looking for more power but rather to see if I can regulate the impact on the model 10. The pictured revolver is my old M-67 and has adjustable sights. Neather handgun is rated for much +P. (Neather either ????? How do you spell neether? )
    Chill Wills

  19. #19
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    "Neither". The English, she is a funny language as she is spoke, and even stranger as she is wrote.
    Remember: Ammo will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no ammo.

  20. #20
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    Thanks. n either came up with a red line so I guess spell check misses it sometimes too.
    Chill Wills

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check