RotoMetals2Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionGraf & Sons
StainLess Steel MediaRepackboxWidenersInline Fabrication
MidSouth Shooters Supply
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: In Over My Head

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    450

    In Over My Head

    Got a chance to put some lead downrange and am thoroughly confused...I'm shooting a 74 Shiloh Sharps 45-70. I tried two completely different loads.. first was a .442 400 gr cup base paper patch bullet, used no lube cookie, cardboard wad and 71.5 grains Swiss 3F(Avg Fps 1400.3 std Dev 6.69). The second load was the Gould 330 gr. grease groove bullet with 70 gr Swiss 2F and a cardboard wad(Avg Fps 1468.00 Std Dev 13.56).

    As stated in other posts I have "old man eyes" and have great difficulty seeing the sights clearly... just got a EyePal in the mail yesterday and it helped quite a bit, but I struggled to see the target at 100 yds... the rifle came with a silver blade front and semi-buckhorn ladder sight on the rear... I shot both at 50 and 100 yds... all shots were low... about 3" @ 50 yds and 6" @ 100 yds... HERE IS MY DILEMMA... I think I would need a taller front sight, but how much taller... the distance between the front and rear is 24". Filing the notch in the rear sight deeper is not an option... It is silly to even try to do load development until I get something done with the sights.. the options are(as I see it... pun intented) get taller front sight and file it down to zero rifle @ 50yds with selected load,
    consider putting a tang or midrange rear sight on(not sure if it would help clear up sight picture).. make a huge investment and put an appropriate scope on it.

    Also, I was somewhat surprised by the velocity of the loads tested... the Gould was developed by moving back the bullet about .02 from the rifling and going with the compressed powder load that fit.. The paperpatched was just copying what someone else had used...not sure if it was right,,, found a lot of paper in the bore when cleaning after each shot...

    I know it is a long post, but I should have titled something like, I can't see anything, cause my head is up my ... (butt)

    Guess I got the front sight direction wrong.. If I shorten it, it should raise the point of aim.

    HELP in
    Last edited by Themoose; 09-20-2018 at 07:16 PM.
    Perhaps my learning skills have diminished in my senior years.. 50 years ago I could read something once and then "have it"... Now I read it about three times, do it a couple of times and then... "have it" only about half the time.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Chill Wills's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,937
    You need a lower front sight if you want to the impact to go up OR move the rear sight in the direct you want to bullet to go. In other words, move the rear buckhorn sight up to hit higher.

    About the tang peep sight. It is a very good idea for our older eyes. A globe front sight with interchangeable inserts is great too.
    I know this from experience.
    You will be amazed how well you can shoot with this type set-up..
    Chill Wills

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Bluegrass State
    Posts
    596
    A taller front sight will make the rifle shoot even lower. To shoot higher you need a taller rear sight or a shorter front. A rear peep will help your eyes focus better on the front sight. Remember, move the rear sight the direction you want the bullet to go. The front, opposite the direction to move poi

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,514
    A tang sight with an aperture sight up front will help a lot. I'm in my 50's and have computer programmer eyes from staring at monitors most of my adult life. I can shot apertures as well as I can a 6x scope, unless the light is poor. In poor light I like the scope.

    Something strange is going on if you are finding paper in the bore with your paper patched loads. The only paper you find should be on the ground in front of the muzzle (assuming it's not windy). Generally it will be pretty shredded too.

    Chris.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,282
    Another vote for Chris's solution - get an aperture sight up front AND use a tang in the back.

    Do not lower your front sight, raise the rear, best done with the tang sight.

    Your paper patch load is just terribly wrong. If you are finding paper in the bore, STOP. You have lead issues instantly. Your bullet is a find diameter to start with but after patching it should be a snug fit in the muzzle of your rifle - in other words about the same diameter as the land diameter of your barrel. You need about 80ish grains of powder under that bullet in a .45-70. 80-86. I like 82. Plus a 0.06" wad, fiber or plastic. Do not omit the wad.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    You need a lower front sight if you want to the impact to go up OR move the rear sight in the direct you want to bullet to go. In other words, move the rear buckhorn sight up to hit higher.

    About the tang peep sight. It is a very good idea for our older eyes. A globe front sight with interchangeable inserts is great too.
    I know this from experience.
    You will be amazed how well you can shoot with this type set-up..
    I too am learning to compensate for old eyes and I second Chill Wills here, once you get it figured out you really will be amazed what can be done with a decent aperture/tang setup ---another trick for old eyes if you are persisting with open iron sights - OR - events that dont allow apertures - cut your own sight blades - make em big and ugly! - my caplock muzzle loader wears a front blade .140wide and a backsight notch cut to match with plenty of daylight showing - it looks stupid ugly but hey I can see the sights and it works !!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    8,993
    Depending on the uses you have planned for the rifle, sights need to be appropriate The buck horn rear and blade front can be improved by going to a wider front blade and opening the notch up some to match it. Another mod that might help is going to a black front post instead of the silver. My original hennery lever actions front is brass and I have to blacken it too see it good. A front globe and tang sight increases sight radius and the appeture rear does clear up the sights some. On a hunting rifle one of the lyman type tang sight ( I just went blank on the others maker its starts with a M). the various ladder sights are good and work but might be on the fragile side for hunting and rougher handling. If you can handle a rifle with the appeture sights and look thru them then its easier to make the choice.
    The various scopes are good I have MVAs and the long range mounts these work and are repeatable but also expensive. Keep in mind also the Malcomb reproduction scopes are 3/4" tubes and field of view is smaller with them.

    You could try smoking the front sight with the spray on sight black or a match to see if that helps any.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Outside Rolla, Missouri
    Posts
    753
    I guess my question is what do you want to do? If you want to shoot regular open sights then changing the front blade and as others have mentioned, opening that rear notch with a file should help a bunch. Over the years I've had to open up the rear notch on all the rifles I shoot with conventional open sights. It helps me but my vision, at 65, is still good enough I can shoot minute of squirrel head at 35 yards with my flintlock.

    Your next option has also been mentioned and I believe you mentioned it as well, a tang sight along with, as others have already said, a good, interchangeable aperture front sight. I like my MVA front sight that also has windage and a spirit level. With a Hadley eye cup the aperture sights should serve you in good stead. It's pretty amazing what old eyes can do with a set up like that.

    A period correct scope....I like the looks of them and have heard good things about them but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Ultimately, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!!!
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

    The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery

    NRA Benefactor 2008

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    450
    Thanks to all for your thoughts. I think I will start pricing tang and aperature front sights. Thanks again
    Perhaps my learning skills have diminished in my senior years.. 50 years ago I could read something once and then "have it"... Now I read it about three times, do it a couple of times and then... "have it" only about half the time.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Arizona
    Posts
    3,177
    If money is no object, a set of tang and globe target sights will solve your problem handily. A scope would be even better, if you have a thousand bucks in the cookie jar.

    But if you are just starting out, and your range is limited to 100 yards anyway, the barrel sights will do fine, and even better if you take a Swiss rectangular or screw head file to the rear notch and straighten (not deepen) it to the rectangular “Patridge” shape. Blacken the front sight with a Magic Marker and daub some cold blue on the notch.

    If I am load developing, I don’t care where the groups are, as long as I can find them and they don’t smash the wood frame of the target backer (at $1.00/hole donation to the Club). Raise your rear sight until the shots are “there or thereabouts,” and staple some shipping or butcher paper around your target so you can find the new holes. Once you get tight groups, then adjust your sights to suit. The rear sight can be moved for windage and the front filed down to zero with the rear notch set at 50 or 100 yards. The fancy target sights can then be considered for longer distances.

    My eyes are bleary, rheumy and old, with retinal damage in both, but I can still tell a promising load from a loser at 100 yards using the barrel sights, tweaked as described above.

    The 330-gr HP was designed by Mr. Gould to turn the .45-70 army rifle into a deer rifle at woods ranges. The military load would shoot through three deer and a tree; way too much penetration. I’ve never gotten target-grade groups with boolits lighter than about 385 gr, and the longer the distance, the longer and heavier the boolit needs to be. Old A.C. knew the difference between a target and a hunting load and the latter was what he was after.

    Brent is right; there’s something seriously wrong with your paper patch load. “Paper Fouling” is almost unheard of; the only time I’ve seen it myself is when I attempted a groove diameter paper-patch load in my .44-77.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    450
    Thanks Bent Ramrod for your advise.. I will definitely consider doing the sight work you mentioned before spending a lot of money on tang sights, at least for the initial load development...as far as the paper, I was puzzled too... I shoot paper patch in my muzzleloader and have not had that issue...perhaps I put to wide a strip on the bullet. When seated on the charge there is a whole lot of paper left exposed.... I could reduce the charge and seat the bullet deeper to see if that helps, or just trim some of the excess paper with a sharp knife...I tried to wrap to cover the parallel sides of the bullet, perhaps I could shorten that. Would the 2 wraps keep any unwrapped portion of the bullet from contacting the barrel (wobbling).
    Perhaps my learning skills have diminished in my senior years.. 50 years ago I could read something once and then "have it"... Now I read it about three times, do it a couple of times and then... "have it" only about half the time.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    8,993
    What form is the paper fouling in? shreads or tight little rings of roughly chamber dia. What paper are you using? with the .442 dia bullet 2 wraps of .002 paper should put you right at .450 dia. One of the benefits of the bore riding bullet is the shallow seating depth and the bullet centered in the bore shortening the patch or seating deeper negates this. Some throated chambers or long cut chambers allow the bullet to swell into the throat and shave paper when squeezed down to the leade barrel dias..

    Shooting on a calm day you should be able to see recover some of the patches. You should see confetti from the outer wrap with the inner wrap intact and showing rifling marks and the fold over intact. so burning should be visible. If possible try going to a .060 thick wad of ldpe or rubber fiber gasket material, the thicker wad offers more protection for the base of the bullet and a better seal.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,282
    themoose,
    here is a photo of some original hunting and target cartridges.

    Cartridges 15 and 18 are what you are striving for. No metal will touch the barrel and very little (0.1") of bullet is inside the case. The rest is up the bore, in the rifling. These are true bore-diameter bullets, much like you would shoot in a muzzleloader -in fact, I shoot the exact same bullets in my muzzleloaders and cartridge rifles. #14 is a hunting cartridge - quite different.


  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    450
    I use #9 onion skin paper... The paper found on the wet cleaning patch varied... there was some small fibers, an occasional "ring" and larger "chunks"... I did look at recovered patches... I was shooting both the muzzleloader and the 45-70 and any found would have been hard to tell which rifle they came from... I will look more closely next time. For the time being, I think I will only have time to work on a "hunting " load so may want to seat bullet deeper as shown in photo #14...I can work on target loads after deer season. Thanks again to all for your suggestions.
    Perhaps my learning skills have diminished in my senior years.. 50 years ago I could read something once and then "have it"... Now I read it about three times, do it a couple of times and then... "have it" only about half the time.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,282
    Themoose,
    When building hunting loads, you do not have to seat as deep in that photo, but it is an option. My .45-70 hunting loads are about 64 or 68 grs of swiss powder compressed quite a bit, then a wax paper or other thin, lube-proof wad, then 0.15" of lube, and a 0.06" fiber or plastic wad. The 480 grn bullet is seated with about 1/2 of the paper patch exposed (sort of like cartridges #10 and #12) and it is slightly larger than bore diameter. This has killed many antelope and a moose.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Toymaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Springfield, VA
    Posts
    502
    As noted, the tang rear and globe front sights will help you a lot. The Hadley Eyecup by Lee Shaver can be adjusted for light conditions and is a good addition. I really, really like the Heilman sights. Three rifles have them. There may be a better bang for the buck out there, but I haven't found it. Good shooting!!
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Heilman sight.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	24.1 KB 
ID:	227536

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy

    Knarley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    328
    I know this is going to sound goofy, but it really helped me out. When I was shooting muzzleloader at black and white targets, I painted the front sight red, and the rear blue. I liked it so well, I do that to most of my rifles, the contrast is like wow!
    Going to a peep in the rear is also very helpful, it has the "Diopter effect" which helps one focus. Don't ask me how it works, that is way over my pay scale, but it does. Stay away from the "Cheap" sights, you really get what you pay for.
    Last edited by Knarley; 09-23-2018 at 09:50 AM.
    A gun in hand is worth two cops on the phone.
    MOLON LABE

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub

    hpbear101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    74
    My eye's are marginal at 100yds for most paper targets. I was at the range a few months back and someone had left one of the Shoot-n-see targets up on the 100 yard backer. I had no problem getting a good sight picture on that target. It was slightly larger than my normal paper target, they are also a very flat black which seemed to really help with the clarity. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4570 420 72 CRT AT 100YS 2 5 17 MINUS SWISS.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	49.2 KB 
ID:	227608This was shot with a 1886 Winchester, Lyman 420 grain and 72 grains of Goex Cartridge. The low "flyer" is actually a .41 Swiss shot that the black paster came off of.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check