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Thread: Two diameter ppbs

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Two diameter ppbs

    DT, the last few week I have been reading what you and Beltfed (Arnie ?)had to say about two diameter ppbs. Im thinking of getting a mold cut and have a question on the larger diameter section, btw it will be for a .45-2.1. The few photos of two diameter bullets Ive seen it shows the larger diameter section over one caliber long. This would make the larger diameter over .450 in .45 cal. I see two negatives with this long section. One, it takes up too much space in the case, no big deal in the longer cases but in .45-70 it can be a problem for long range. Second, there is less bullet length patched to .450 for bore riding and alignment. Do you think one can get away with the larger diameter belt being around .125- .135 long, or even less ? My Browning bpcr has no freebore but just a 45 degree angle from chamber wall to the rifling. I dont think, even with that short of a belt, one would get stripping and one might be able to use a harder alloy than 16:1 to better hold nose shape.
    Thanks for your thoughts and comments.
    Regards, Richard

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard if you can wait just a bit, I can send you some dual diameter bullets that I cast from a Brooks nose pour adjustable mould. I won't have time to cast any up until I get back from the bptr nationals, and most of what I have cast up are being stuffed into cases to make that trip to the nationals.
    I also have a dual diameter for the 44's in a Brooks nose pour, and those bullets shoot just as well with the overall length of the bullet at 1.1 inch as it does stretched out a bit . I was pretty shocked when I set the length down to 1.1 inches and it shot so well, that base section is awfully short.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Don, thanks! I can wait. Just let me know when you are ready and I’ll send you my address. Btw, how short is that base section on your .44 ?
    Good luck at the nationals.
    Best, Richard

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard I'll have to measure that and get back to you but it's pretty dang short.
    Thanks, I'll probably need a ton of luck.LOL
    GUSA #6
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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Flatsguide, Indeed, you can go shorter on the "patch to case I.D./freebore" base band:
    See attached pics. One is for my 40-72/12 twist- 440gr DDEPP , second is a drg I did for
    a shorter base banded 45 cal/18 twist bullet-only in the case 1/8", plus 0.1 freebore lengthClick image for larger version. 

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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    OH, Richard,
    You mentioned using a harder alloy:
    I am using 9+1 ww/lino for all of these.
    It works great , and Will Not slump.
    beltfed/arnie

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    OH, Richard,
    You mentioned using a harder alloy:
    I am using 9+1 ww/lino for all of these.
    It works great , and Will Not slump.
    beltfed/arnie
    I understand not slumping but do you have a guestimate on BHN ,I PP a 45/70 in my 1874 Sharps 18 twist and thought 16-1 was hard but your alloy sounds really hard and I am always looking to improve thanks Ed

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ed,
    My 9+1 ww/lino alloy is about 14+ BHN
    beltfed/arnie

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Seems to me 16+1 lead/tin is approaching this hardness.
    At least, when I have cast 16+1, the weight is close to my 9+1 ww/lino.
    my 9+1 is estimated to be +- :
    94.5% lead
    4.5% Antimony
    1% tin
    beltfed/arnie

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by beltfed View Post
    Ed,
    My 9+1 ww/lino alloy is about 14+ BHN
    beltfed/arnie
    Thanks for the info mine is 11-6 / 11-8 so maybe it"s my Lee tester has a different benchmark ,it is hard seeing hash marks sometimes ! My alloy is 16 parts lead/1 part tin ,again thanks Ed

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Arnie, thanks so much for the photos and information. Ed, On my 3 year old 16:1 alloy from Roto metals I’m getting .080 for a BHN of 7.9 from the ingots and .076/ BHN 8.7. That’s with a Lee tester.
    I have a set of gage pins and made the measurements I need for the two diameters today. I plan on talking with Steve Brooks on Monday to find out what tolerances he can hold while cutting the mold and that will determine the numbers I give him. Will also ask about the difference shrinkage rates between 9:1 or10:1 and 16:1 alloy. Thinking of going to .100” tall on the base diameter and a 45 degree transition from chamber to rifling. I can always bore the base diameter deeper if need be.
    Thanks again Arnie, nice looking bullets in the photo but was not able to see the diameter dimensions on the .45 bullets.
    Regards, Richard

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Richard,
    PM me your direct email address and I will send
    you another PIC of the .45 bullet.
    beltfed/arnie

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Rickard it looks like your Lee and Mine agree on the 1/16 certified tin Lead Mix. My Lee shows .080 with this mix.

    At the Quigley I picked up around 200 lab of lead containers radiation medicine comes shopped in and I made 3# ingots from it and as is they scale out at .080. When I saw this stuff I figured it had antimony in it to keep it looking fresh poured. Waiting for snow to see how the bullets react shot with out adding anything to it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Arnie received the drawing ...thank you.
    Leadpot, nice to know they are in agreement! Interesting is how Lead alloys change hardness over time.

    Trying to get uniform powder heights and therefore uniform compression or lack of it I came up with a little gimmick that works well. I have tried drop tube, drop tube with vibration and vibration; with the variation of black powder kernels and variation in case volume my powder column height was all over the map.

    I turned an aluminum plug to be a loose fit in the case the length of which is the height of the desired bullet seating plus the wad stack height. The remainder of the plug diameter is larger than the case mouth so the plug can only go so far into the case. I weigh the charge place the funnel over the case and the case sits on the vibrator. I pour the powder in slow then remove the funnel and put the plug into the case and vibrate the charge until it touches the rim and you are left with a uniform powder height. Photos to follow.
    Regards, Richard
    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #15
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Richard I can't say that the alloy gets softer time or not. Just earlier this spring I ran out of lead casting for the Baker MT and the Quigley and I had a bunch of 1/16 GG bullets that I have not shot since the late 90's and I checked then with Lee and they were still .080. I know that there is a lot of talk that the alloy softens in time but I don't have the high priced lab testers to see it. When a bullet is cast it takes a day to get the alloy stable but I don't see it change using the Lee or Saeco testers.......Kurt

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    flatsguide. Your aluminum plug is dependent on brass length to get uniform powder height. I made one that fits in to a de-capper die for this operation. Love your idea for the vibrator. My process has the poured powder mounded up over the brass length. Then tap brass on table to be able to insert wad. Then in to press where it gets the uniform height tool.
    One of these days, I've got to get beltfed's wad tool back to him.
    The only amendment the Democrats support is the 5th.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    upnorthwi"One of these days, I've got to get beltfed's wad toolS back to him".
    And get your 0.060 LDPE from me..
    OK, just now not desperate to cut more wads for myself, tho I want to cut more
    for Steve Klein , the new shooter.
    Regards,
    beltfed/arnie

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard you may want to build a powder compression stem, because sometimes the seating depth you determine to be right isn't exactly what the rifle and the bullet will agree with. Seems that the dual diameter bullets like to be seated much like a grease groove, with the transition from the base to the nose being used much like the driving band on a greaser, sometimes seating hard into the lands, sometimes just kissing the lands.
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    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

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  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Upnorthwis, you are correct all the brass needs to be trimmed to length. Don I used a powder compression stem to seat the wads.
    Below is the drawing of the Seitz design bullet that I’m sending to Steve Brooks. Thanks Arnie.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards, Richard

    Edit, the cast boolit photo editing reduces the photo so print can not be read.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check