What is Lee up to??

[Buckshot]

................I believe the reason that the group buys have been taking so long is that the people at Lee realize that scrapping out runs and dissatisfied customers just wasn't the way to go. It didn't always take this long to have a group buy produced, but if you'll also recall there was buy after buy that was coming in "Off Spec" and unacceptable.

It was getting to the point that it was almost a crap shoot if a mould was going to be useable for it's intended purpose or not. So you had the Honcho on behalf of himself and some number of his participants that was calling Lee. Or you had numbers of folks on their own calling Lee about the same problems.

I recall 2 GB's where ALL the moulds for one, and many of the moulds for the 2nd were shipped back to Lee for re-working, or scrapping and replaceing.

In addition to having pissed off customers you now have material that is only worth scrap price. You didn't pay scrap for it in the first place. Add to that you added in value via wages paid, machine time, and tooling costs plus the attendant wages for people to create the tooling. Finally you have packaging and then shipping.

After all that they shipped out a lot of off spec or unusable stuff, and it was returned as scrap so far as Lee was concerned.

In the past 3 years or less I know Lee has invested in 2 new machines. Wether they now have 3 (which I doubt) they probably have 2. I doubt all they do is moulds. Possibly one does only moulds and the other may share time with other duties. This I don't know, but it seems to me that while Lee is taking longer to get GB moulds out, they are doing an exemplary job of hitting them "To Spec" or so close as to not matter with the vast majority in the past year, or year and a half.

The people responsible for producing the moulds, the tool grinder, the setup guy, the operator and the programmer, and whoever else were probably all set down in a meeting. The theme being if we don't have time to do it right the first time, how will we have time to REDO them the next time around?

I have no secret insights other then what was happening, what I was told a couple different times and the way things are going now. The way they're going now is we're getting the product we want, but it's taking a awile longer then before. I would rather wait for something worth waiting for then have a *** right now. Yes it's hard to wait for the ne plus ultra super whizzbang earth shattering design to beat all. However it WILL come, and in the meantime we DO have our other moulds to keep us occupied. When the new one finally arrives, (we'll say, "What the heck is this?") it's all the sweeter for the wait (as much as I abhor waiting )

Seems to me that not too long ago if you wanted an American made Sharps rifle you had a 3 to 5 year wait. I don't know how long Lone Star was taking for a RB. Maybe you paid for a Pedersoli in the meantime for something to do, but if you wanted the best, you waited however long the wait was. While Lee may not be the best in terms of materials, and all that goes along with that, but for what it costs and what you're getting, it's a pretty fair deal.

Whatever the reason is that is taking the folks at Lee so long to get the GB's out, I'm sure it's not to just aggravate us. If putting on a second shift would make a differance, I'm sure they would have so long as it didn't kill profits or endanger the quality of the product. I for one can't deny any company for wanting to be profitable.

....................Buckshot

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Buckshot,

Well said sir. Although I am only in on one group buy ( thanks to a benevolent honcho), I understand the anticipation and lack of patience. I too would rather wait for something I can use. I will continue to b!$@h about the wait under my breath, but I understand. I just remember that if it wasn't for LEE and these group buys that I would never be able to afford a custom mould. So I am thankful and I appreciate everyone that is involved.

Regards,
Everett

[45 2.1]

The answer: up to their necks, in rather warm water, in a pot on a stove burner turned up past medium flame..........

[dragonrider]

Ok, I agree with you kind of. I like to get good molds, but I just don't think that a 7 to 9 month wait is acceptable. Of course I don't know how long their custom mold list is, obviously it is long enough for this interminable wait but if they have that many molds to make it would make perfect sense to invest in another or two machines. Your comparison of mold and rifles is apples and oranges so to speak. There is considerably less work, manpower, engineering and machine time in making a mold. My opinion is that the custom mold work is not very high on their priority list and that they only make them when they have some extra machine time. There are several group buys that I did not get in one simply because of the wait. I would just as soon pay twice as much and get it in less than 1/3 the time.

[jlchucker]

I'm in only one group buy, and am in no particular hurry. I can wait for an acceptable product, and don't blame Lee at all. Buckshot's post is pretty much descriptive of the manufacturing world. New machinery is costly, and specialized machinery can have some pretty long lead times. Molds don't sell for all that much, in the big scheme of things. Lee would probably have to sell hundreds of thousands just to pay off one new machine--and it ain't gonna happen for our little group buys. We just need to be aware that waiting awhile for a good custom product is part of the process.

[Scrounger]

That being said, we really ought to look to other sources for future group buys. Pluses would be better moulds, shorter waiting times, more variety and variations in molds. Minuses would be slightly higher costs and no 6 cavity molds. I think the six cavity molds are over-board anyway for rifle bullets, two cavities are fine for me, and four cavities are plenty in pistol bullets. Using producers like Mountain Mold, NEI, and Old West Bullet Molds, we will pay a little more but we will get much better molds than Lee produces, we will get them quicker, and most of these producers will allow some variation in molds such as one gas check cavity and one plain base, or one fellow can get the bullet as a gas check bullet and someone else can order it as plain based. I am still awaiting on Lee Group Buy, it has been several months and yet several months to wait, and a strong possibility the mold won't be in spec when it arrives. Some Lee equipment is very good quality and price; all their molds don't fall into that category....

[Ranch Dog]

I do think that Lee is taking more time to get it right but as a note, there were 91 orders ahead of my last order. At any time, I have approximately 1,000 molds on order and there are several businesses like mine ordering molds. If I loose any more money on my 401(k), I'm going to triple that as there is a lot more profit in molds than there is in our financial system!

I also think that the volume of business must be from a general increase in cast bullets. I receive a huge volume of emails every day from fellows interested in switching to cast bullets. Surely the Lee cataloged designs are occupying more production time than they did even a year ago.

Lee added a new machine to cut molds at the start of the year. I received a group of trial molds from the first cut and the product was very, very nice. This machine and the fact that the delay increased is simply the American economy in motion. Build it and they will come! There is some cross over point that starts to decrease the time line as machines are added but only the capital investment can give you the answer.

I do like Lee's Special Order Mold Policy. In short, they work off of cavity drawings not bullet drawings. That makes it simple and easy to examine a mold for compliance with the order. I've switched all my drawings to cavity dimensions and the products I've seen so far are great.

I did recently make a request and I hope Lee will consider it. When I order, I get nothing in return until I see the molds XXX days down the road. I would like to receive an "invoice" with my order details, the date the order was processed, and the invoice number. Additionally, I would like it to state the order date that is currently in production. In other words, if I order molds today, what is the order date of the molds you are cutting today. This is the information that the ladies must look up each time you call and it must be frustrating and time consuming. If I received this information when I ordered, I simply would not call. Like I said, the response I received indicated that they would look into the matter and consider it and I'm sure it would be a great help to all of us.

You guys better get your orders ready, I'm ordering another 200 molds today! First come, is first served!

[Ranch Dog]

Just for reference. I received three orders this week and the return time on my orders, from my check leaving to UPS pulling up, was 258, 256, and 256 days. The least time I've seen this year is 158 days and the most time the 258 days.

[HeavyMetal]

Buckshot's words are well said and well thought out.

However I think the issue is a bit larger than were seeing. It's not just machine time, it's training on the machine. Let's face it experience can not be bought!

Then there's the issue with Quality Control. We've all seen, or recieved, a product from Lee that Had such a blatant defect that you can't belive the person that put it in the box wasn't blind!

I don't have a problem with a company making a profit. I also don't mind paying a fair price for the product. What I mind is paying the price and reciving questionable goods!

Lee makes a good product, mostly. Lee is very affordable.

However for the $2.00 they might have to raise the price of each product I think they could put together an early retirement package for that poor blind person that is so obvoiusly overworked in the QC / shipping deptment!

Then they can get a real QC dept working and save themselves money.

Because if you can't make money doing it right the first time, how can you possiblely make money doing it over?

[725]

Buckshot,
How quick we (I) can forget. Thanks for reminding me of how easy it is to complain and how hard it sometimes is to allow things to happen in thier own time. I got a bunch of GB's in the works, had in my little mind it would take 6 months for each and as the time passed, I got eager to get the ball rolling. They have improved their quality and I would, in fact, rather have it right than deal with correcting some error. Still, I also am tired of waiting. Future purchases will be balanced against the waiting game and the product desired. Thanks for giving me some calm perspective.

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, as usual, hits the nail on the head. It's all a simple game of time, money,and quality--pick any two. I would rather pay $60 or $70 for a high quality mold that I get in six to nine months, than pay $130-$250 for a 4- to -6 cavity mold that I can get in a month or so. And so, this is what I choose to do. Gentlemen, I submit it is all a matter of simple economics; pay your money(however much or little you want), and make your choice. It's just that simple.
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

Below are the only mould makers I know that will do custom moulds. Mountain moulds semi-custom only.

OLD WEST BULLET MOULDS....................

Old West Single Cavity Moulds..........$85.00
Old West BPCR designs (bullets longer than 1.100") start at $105.00
Old West Double Cavity Moulds.........$95.00
Old West Three Cavity Moulds...........$109.00
Old West Hollow base Moulds start at......$99.00

NEI MOULDS.......................... Prices shown DO NOT include the cherry expenses. See bottom of NEI price list for this.

90.00 1 or 2 Cavity in Aluminum Mold up to .451 pistol - regular block

110.00 1 or 2 Cavity Meehanite Mold up to .451 Pistol - regular block

90.00 Large Caliber 1 Cavity in Aluminum Mold above .451 regular block not to exceed 1.2 in length otherwise Tall Block is required - Call For Details

110.00 Large Caliber 1 Cavity in Meehanite Mold above .451 - regular block not to exceed 1.2 in length otherwise Tall Block is required - Call For Details

110.00 1 or 2 Cavity in Aluminum Tall Block Mold - Depends on diameter and length of caliber
150.00 3 or 4 Cavities in Aluminum Tall Block Mold - Depends on diameter and length of caliber

200.00 5 or 6 Cavities in Aluminum Tall Block Mold - Depends on diameter and length of caliber
150.00 1 or 2 Cavity in Meehanite Tall Block Mold - Depends on diameter and length of caliber
180.00 3 or 4 Cavities in Meehanite on a 4 cavity Tall block .451 and above use 3 cavities.

160.00 3 or 4 Cavities in Meehanite on a 4 cavity regular block .451 and above use 3 cavities and no longer than 1.20

125.00 1 Cavity Hollow Base Nose Pour in Aluminum add $25.00 for Meehanite.

165.00 2 Cavity Hollow Base Nose Pour in Aluminum add $25.00 for Meehanite.

NEI CHERRY COST..........In addition to mould cost ...................

75.00 Order of at least 5 molds from that cherry (except Magma Molds)

125.00 Cherry and order of at least 3 molds at the going price from that cherry


MOUNTAIN MOULDS.......................... Remember that Dan will only cut moulds produced via his design program, so is NOT a true custom mould maker

Alum 1 cav $75
Brass 1 cav $85
Iron 1 cav $100

Alum 2 cav $85
Brass 2 cav $90
Iron 2 cav $110

XL Alum 3 cav $120
XL Iron 3 cav $140

...................Buckshot

[HeavyMetal]

It's good that Buckshot posted these prices for other mold makers, it helps us keep a little prospective on how good a deal we do get from Lee.

However we also need to realize that these makers are "One Horse" operations and do not have the Manufacturing capablities that Lee does, yet they can usually beat the production times by months, not days, and produce a mold that does not have to be returned!

So You'll all have to forgive me if I don't see the need to cut Lee any slack!

Delivery, manufacturing and Quality Control are management jobs!

Someone at Lee is simply not "managing" to get things done! Until that changes we will continue to see GB's with huge lead times, we will continue to buy "standard" molds that come out of the box half finished and we will continue to get the "cold shoulder" when we ask why?

I am in on several GB's. I will continue to join GB's as I see designs I like BUT I will be very concerned about who the maker is and how long a deliver time Is being quoted and, quite honestly, in some case's I will approach the custom makers listed by Buckshot and get it done faster and better!

When all is said and done I like to save a buck but life's to short for a 12 month lead time on a boolit mold!

[VTDW]

I have no problem at all paying quite a bit more money for a mold if I know when ordering it will be to tolerances and get to me in 158 days or less, rather than 258 days!!

Dave

[Springfield]

I do leather work as well as casting bullets for a living, and this is no different. There are guys out there who will pay 500-750 plus dollars for a really nice rig. And then there are others like me who can't possibly afford stuff like that, who get my 200 dollar rigs and are perfectly happy. We all have our own budget. And personally speaking, after using LEE 6 cavity moulds everything else just seems like slow torture. I have a few customers who want nice long range bullets that I cast from single cavity moulds, and it just seems like it takes forever to do 250 bullets. Even though I charge accordingly it just doesn't seem worth it. And for those who think LEE should just go out and spring for another 100,000 dollar machine to make moulds, these kind of things are a long term investment. Maybe LEE is afraid this bullet casting surge may die out in a couple of years, and then they will be sitting on some very expensive machinery that is sitting idle. Who can tell the future for sure, and it's their money. Or maybe they don't WANT to grow too large. I could make more bullets if Iwanted to hire someone else, but I choose not to. I actually turn down work right now, but that is how I want it. Bigger is not always better, as un-American as that sounds.

[Scrounger]

I have no problem at all paying quite a bit more money for a mold if I know when ordering it will be to tolerances and get to me in 158 days or less, rather than 258 days!!

Dave

That's the way I feel about it, too, but apparently a lot of folks here feel the need for lots and lots of molds to make high volumes of bullets. I figure out what I want to use each gun for, then figure out which bullet best serves that purpose. I see no need for more than 1 or 2 molds per caliber, and two cavity molds make enough bullets for my purposes. But that's just me.

[Catshooter]

You know, one thing we may have overlooked is that there simply may not be room in the Lee plant for any more CNCs. This could also be a factor.

I don't want to come across as harsh, but in my experience it's awful easy to critisize someone else's work. Yes it's frustrating for Lee to not talk to us, but if you read through this thread I can sure see why they might not want to! Some people are impossible to please. Period.

It would be great if Lee would do exactly what we want and do it for $10 per mould. Not gonna happen though. Bottom line: Lee is the least expensive most versitle mould maker out there. If you don't like the moulds they make, if you can't stand waiting a year, then run your own group buys with some other maker. That simple.

Though I was away from the board for a spell, I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been a Lee group buy run returned to Lee since they fixed their problems. Is that right?

Sheesshhh. Some guys'd bitch if you hung 'em with a new rope!


Cat

[Scrounger]

I believe RanchDog had to return several groups of moulds to them recently.

[500bfrman]

I see no reason to complain. You want crappy molds order from lee, just quit complaining. You want a good mold go somewhere else.

[Dale53]

You want crappy molds order from lee

That's pretty harsh. I have a number of Lee moulds, both regular production and a couple of group buys. They have been right on spec and they do a really good job for me.

A good bit of the delay is the "surge" demand for reloading products. Just look at Midway's website. Check out ALL of the reloading tool manufacturers. There are back orders galore. A manufacturer, whether Lee, or somebody else cannot build a new plant based on the "sudden surge".

I have been waiting on some items from a variety of companies. Heck, it took a couple of months to get Starline .45 Auto Rim cases. That's just the way things are, for now.

I, for one, am greatful for a company that will fool with Group Buys. GB's are quite often "nitch products" and often do not pay companies to carry them on a regular basis.

Lyman, has even dropped their great 452424 bullet (Elmer Keith's .45 bullet) in a four cavity mould. I doubt that would have been done if the demand was up. It is a sad statement that such a great bullet is now seen as passe'. It fair brings tears to my eyes. NOTE that the Lyman Cowboy bullet (452664) IS still available in a four cavity mould. It is pretty clear to me that demand is high for the Cowboy bullet and not so high for the Keith. I guess the bullet casting community has become "fashion conscious"??

Right now, with demand for general reloading products being so high, we'll wait for most anything in the reloading tool line. My saving grace is that I have been in reloading so long that I have nearly everything that I need.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53