Volkswagen Jetta TDI

[FISH4BUGS]

If a fellow was interested in picking up a good used Mercedes to run errands and such, what years and models should he look for?

My current daily driver is a 91 300d diesel with 277,000 miles. I do 30,000 miles a year. It is what they call the 124 chassis car. It was a one owner and bought it with 230,000 on it, with all the service records. Truly....the little old lady's Mercedes.
Personally, the 123 chassis (up to 1985) are too old to drive a lot. They are starting to creep up in price each year because of the collectible status, particularly with low miles. They MIGHT do the daily errands just fine, but repairs are not cheap unless you find a garage with parts cars on site.
I'd pick a 124 chassis (1986 and up) and get one with as few miles on it as you can afford.....the lower the miles the higher the price. I have in my sights a 1995 300d with 70k, but the guy wants 10k for it.....a bit too much. I don't mind paying a premium for condition and low mileage but that is too much.
Get one with the service records so you know it was taken care of. My 1985 300d was sold with 414k on it and I had all the service records since I bought it with 125k on it.
I have been driving MB diesels for 35 years an love them.
There is something very Zen-like from the hum of a diesel engine at 75 mph.

[pmer]

I hear very bad things about VW reliability for anything that was made in the last 10 years or so.

I've been thinking about picking up a beater so I've been searching he car sale sites with a cap of $4000. One thing I've noticed is that you hardly ever see a Toyota or Honda at that price unless it has over 200K miles on it. I've seen several VW cars, tons of Chryslers and a bunch of Korean cars.

I haven't looked for a used car for a long time and I'm amazed at how many different cars there are out there. My thought was for up to eight to $10,000 of spending and then looking for something that has a light sporty feel to it. But it is interesting to learn about Mercedes-Benz diesels. I did a search for them and found one or two in each decade from the 70s up to now and the prices were pretty good too.
I drove a couple Jetta tdi's and I do like the way they drive and the power they have and the body size fits into what I'm looking for. But yeah it doesn't have to be a Jetta TDI to to match what I'm looking for.

[pmer]

My current daily driver is a 91 300d diesel with 277,000 miles. I do 30,000 miles a year. It is what they call the 124 chassis car. It was a one owner and bought it with 230,000 on it, with all the service records. Truly....the little old lady's Mercedes.
Personally, the 123 chassis (up to 1985) are too old to drive a lot. They are starting to creep up in price each year because of the collectible status, particularly with low miles. They MIGHT do the daily errands just fine, but repairs are not cheap unless you find a garage with parts cars on site.
I'd pick a 124 chassis (1986 and up) and get one with as few miles on it as you can afford.....the lower the miles the higher the price. I have in my sights a 1995 300d with 70k, but the guy wants 10k for it.....a bit too much. I don't mind paying a premium for condition and low mileage but that is too much.
Get one with the service records so you know it was taken care of. My 1985 300d was sold with 414k on it and I had all the service records since I bought it with 125k on it.
I have been driving MB diesels for 35 years an love them.
There is something very Zen-like from the hum of a diesel engine at 75 mph.

How are the electronics and wiring on those Mercedes that you're suggesting, do they hold up pretty good?

[Petrol & Powder]

If a fellow was interested in picking up a good used Mercedes to run errands and such, what years and models should he look for?

Elkins45 - I'll jump in here and I'm sure texasnative will as well.

The diesel Mercedes sedans and wagon from the 1970's and 1980's were some of the most durable designs to ever come out of Germany. The chassis went through model changes and are known for common body styles (just like other manufacturers). The 115 body was made from 1968-1976. The 123 chassis followed and made from 1976-1985. The 124 & 126 bodies were made into the 1990's.
The diesel engines in those years break down into 4 cylinder, 5 cylinder and 6 cylinder. The 5 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines also came with turbochargers during some of those years. The engines are extremely durable although the non-turbo 4 cylinder models (240D) are pretty slow when coupled to an automatic transmission. Some 1985-1987 turbo diesels had a trap oxidizer up stream from the turbo that was subject to a massive factory sponsored replacement program. I've heard different opinions on those devices ranging from "not a problem" to "avoid at all cost".

The engines use a LOT of cast aluminum parts (intakes, brackets, oil filter canisters, etc.). Good for weight savings and they don't rust. Bad if a Bubba type mechanic gets a hold of it. You know how you look a gun with buggered up screw heads and know someone abused it, well you do the same thing on a Mercedes.

You can find old 240D and 300D series cars with manual transmissions and they are the most trouble free but the automatics are not bad, just slower with the diesel.

The weak links on the old Mercedes sedans are the lower bodies are prone to rust, particularly along the stills and behind the rear wheels. The air conditioning systems were not up to American standards. Many American mechanics learned how to get the most out of the Mercedes A/C systems and they can be made to work well in some cases. Don't be surprised if the A/C simply does not work on the older models.
There was a plastic heater valve on some models that just wants to leak. There's an American all metal replacement that fixes that problem.

SO, if you're looking for an old Mercedes Diesel your criteria should be: Solid body with the best interior you can find, functional drivetrain with no signs of abuse, working ancillary systems (A/C, heater, radio, windows roll up/down, etc. ).

The non-turbo 4 and 5 cylinder models can be pretty slow but are reliable. The non-turbo 6 cylinder models are the simplest engines that produce decent power. The turbo models produce good power for their size but the trap oxidizer models (some 1985-1987) models scare some folks.

Good Luck.

[Petrol & Powder]

AND...... if you want the ultimate in fuel mileage....the 1986 190D 2.5 and 1987 190D Turbo 2.5 were very thrifty with fuel. That compact body known as the 201 chassis (C-class) was a long distance commuters dream BUT everyone that owned one knew it ! Most of the remaining drivable 190D's have 400K miles on them !!!

[texasnative46]

elkins 45,

The following comments are an ADDENDA to what Petrol & Powder said above.

ANY of the PRE-1988 diesels are FINE & certain other years of the 300D are OK too.
(AVOID the post-1988 S-class diesels with the 3.5 liter engine, for example the 350SDL, as they are KNOWN "rod-benders" & very expensive to repair.)

ANY of the 300SDL cars are FINE & FAST. The 5-cylinder 300D cars of 1980-85 are "pretty OK", though my favorite is the 1985 MB 300D & 300SD.

IF you like gasoline cars,. most any "well-maintained" S-class cars with the "straight six" are FINE. The 430, 500 & 560 cars (like my 420SEL, that is my DD) are FINE, though "more or less thirsty" & need PREMIUM grade gas. = I "baby" my 420SEL but it only gets about 17MPG. A 560SEL generally 12-15 MPG.

NOTE: IF you are looking for a classic MB that will RISE in value every year (for a long time), look for a "one-owner/well-maintained 500, 540 or 560 SEC, which is the sexy/blazingly fast 2-door sport coupe. = Expect to pay 10-15,000.oo for a good one in 2018. = MOST of the NICE S-class & particularly the SEC cars are "out of estate sales". = MOST of the SECs were bought by men who were over 50 YO & were "well taken care of", as long as the original owner lived BUT beware of a SEC which has been sold/resold several times, as most of those have SUFFERED from poor maintenance & are "MONEY PITS". - There are NO "steals"/"screaming bargains" in MB SEC coupes!!!
(As I write these lines, I'm seeking a "gray-market", "Euro-spec" 500 or 540SEC, as customized by one of the well-known MB "Performance Specialty Shops" in Germany.)

ADDENDA: I strongly recommend a "pre-purchase inspection" by a MERCEDES SPECIALIST before spending your money for any S-class. = These are COMPLICATED & EXPENSIVE luxury cars & require constant care/considerable maintenance to keep them NICE.
(That said, I constantly am asked, when I stop for gas, if my DD, the 420SEL, is "possibly for sale". = NOPE. It's NOT!!)

yours, tex

[Petrol & Powder]

Shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia and, based on my personal observations, - entirely TRUE:

"...The OM617 engine family is a straight-5 diesel automobile engine from Mercedes-Benz used in the 1970s and 1980s. It is a direct development from the straight-4 OM616. It was sold in vehicles from 1974 to 1991. The OM617 is considered to be one of the most reliable engines ever produced with engines often reaching over 1,000,000 km without being rebuilt and is one of the key reasons for Mercedes' popularity in North America in the 1980s, as it was powerful and reliable compared to other automotive diesels of the time. ...."

[texasnative46]

Petrol & Powder,

MY experience too, since about 1980. = I've owned well over a DOZEN 123/126 diesels & had good luck with all. - Otoh, I wouldn't have a 350SD/SDL if it was a gift, however.
(Their downfall was RUST from copious salt on the roads, when I was stationed "way UP yonder" & when I was on AD.)

yours, tex

[RED BEAR]

i admit the jetta i am talking about is a very old one late 80s .but it tought me that i never again want anything to do with german engineering again. i couldn't fix it the vw repair shop couldn't fix it the vw dealer couldn't fix it.the happiest day was when i sold it told them had no idea what was wrong couldn't get it fixed. had a friend bought one new again long time ago there was something wrong with fuel injection ( same problem as mine) dealer couldn't fix his eather and he tried several dealers . finally got them to take it back.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yep, with proper maintenance the engines are bulletproof. The weak link is the rest of the car, particularly the bodies when it comes to rust. I don't think the 70's and 80' Mercedes are any more prone to the dreaded tin worm than their contemporaries but because the drive trains were so durable the cars lived long enough for that weakness to become evident.

[FISH4BUGS]

How are the electronics and wiring on those Mercedes that you're suggesting, do they hold up pretty good?

One of the reasons I like the 123 and 124 chassis cars is there are few electronics on them. As for the wiring, if it weren't for the mouse nest and the chewed wiring it would be fine.
Just went though the wiring thing but it was due to the mice, not to anything else.

[Petrol & Powder]

Red Bear, I hear you loud & clear. To say that the water cooled VW's are "quirky" is a gross understatement.

The old air cooled VW's had their issues as well but they were simple enough that one could work around and overcome the problems.
When VW went to the water cooled/front wheel drive platform, they were no longer the simple machines of their ancestors.

For example, the early VW Rabbits had exterior door handles that were made from some type of crappy pot metal. They would make it about 7-10 years before they just broke apart. The driver's door handle got the most use, therefore failed first. So that was the one missing from EVERY Rabbit in EVERY junkyard ! The solution was to use a rear door handle from the same side which meant you no longer had a lock cylinder on the exterior of the driver's side. That was just one of many quirks with the new generation VW's.
Enough issues like that and you begin to hate the new generation VW's.

[texasnative46]

Petrol & Powder,

AGREED 100%.

yours, tex

[Petrol & Powder]

One of the reasons I like the 123 and 124 chassis cars is there are few electronics on them. As for the wiring, if it weren't for the mouse nest and the chewed wiring it would be fine.
Just went though the wiring thing but it was due to the mice, not to anything else.

AGREED !
One of the strengths of the 115/123 and even the 124 chassis was their relative simplicity. Despite their "high end" image in America (they don't share that image in Germany) they were pretty straight forward cars. The electrical system of an older Mercedes is fairly simple and well made. In fact, Mercedes shunned the use of excessive electrical components whenever they could. They used mechanical fuel shut offs on their old diesels, vacuum power door locks if you wanted automatic locks and mechanical back ups for lots of things like sunroofs. It wasn't until later models that they started to put a lot of electrics into their cars.

On top of that, Bosch components (switches, relays, plugs, etc. ) were reliable and durable.

[texasnative46]

FISH4BUGS,

AGREED 100%.

In the 1990s, MB had SOME problems with deteriorating wiring harnesses, so the wiring should be PROFESSIONALLY INSPECTED before purchasing a car.

yours, tex

[Tackleberry41]

I worked at a VW dealer, late 90s. Drove several diesels, but the older rabbits. The old mechanical engines were bullet proof. Sadly with VW or anything German its everything else thats the issue. Weird electrical issues, stupid leaks that happen over and over. A heater core that goes bad and a royal pain to replace. And yea they are expensive to fix. Shop I worked at got caught giving different prices. Walk in off the street got a higher price than if a tech asked on an estimate. Plus our parts manager would look up a part, get out his calculator and add whatever percentage he felt like.

Those old Mercedes diesels are bullet proof, but good luck finding one. Its really rare to even see one on the road. Like VW the engines may be bullet proof, the rest of the car isn't. Be a miracle to find one where the door locks work, or shuts off when you want it to. Trans leaks are a constant thing. And cost even more to get fixed. Dealer I worked at gets $135 hr.

[texasnative46]

Tackleberry41,

I have NO idea where you are but around San Antonio/Austin, the old diesel MB 123 sedans are VERY commonly for sale, cheap.
(IF you decide that you want one, I'll find you a NICE & rust-free MB 123 sedan/coupe for about 2,000.oo or less. = The last 300D that I bought was a 1984 model for 1750.oo, with 165,000 one-owner miles out of Buda, TX.)

yours, tex

[Petrol & Powder]

In the Mid-Atlantic states there are plenty of old 123 diesel Mercedes but the bodies are the weak link. Either the stills and lower quarter panels are rusted out or the interior is trashed. You have to get out of the "salt states" to find solid examples of 30 + year old cars.
BTW the MB tex interior (sort of a tough perforated vinyl) was very durable but even that will suffer after 35+ years. Those 70's and 80's sedans were outstanding cars but even they eventually get old.

Most of the MB diesel engines were bullet proof. The inline 6 gasoline engines were also good but very dependent on maintenance. 1st owner cars were typically well maintained but 2nd & 3rd owner gas engine Mercedes models are a bit suspect. With proper oil change intervals, the timing chains and cams would be fine for 200K miles. With dirty oil the chains and cams would be shot before 80K. A friend picked up a mid 70's gas engine sedan with a straight six (I think it was a 280 but I can't recall) that would barely run. The timing chain was about 1 1/2" Longer than it should have been ! Remarkably the bottom end of the engine was still good. We fixed it and he drove it for about a year before selling it for more money than he had it.



The electrical systems up until the 124 chassis were very simple and rarely gave the owners problems, which is more than I could say about Volvo's of the same vintage.

[texasnative46]

Petrol & Powder,

Fwiw, what I'm looking for right now (as you've doubtless guessed, I'm a collector, as well as a MB driver) is a PRISTINE/one-owner straight-6 mid-80s W126 sedan AND a 500/540/560 SEC in similar condition.
In the event that you are seeking a ONE-OWNER & RUST-FREE vintage MB, PM me & I'll look for one for you at a good price. ===> Won't cost me anything, as I'm always "out & about LOOKING".

I've found a BUNCH of L6 sedans that had 2/3/4 or more owners & NONE were well preserved. - I suspect that I will find a "gem" in the next year or 2.

yours, tex

[Petrol & Powder]

Texasnative46, I attempted to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.

Thanks for the offer but I'm not currently in the market for a car.