Where do people get the idea that micro groove boolits don't need sizing?

[maglvr]

Greetings brothers and sisters of the silver stream
This is just a pet peeve of mine, I have held in way too many years. Now seems like a good time to share it, before I explode LOL.
Just one of those little things that get under your skin like when someone says "nucular" instead of nuclear.
If I have seen it once, I have seen (and heard) it a few hundred times, that LEE micro groove bullets do not need sizing! As if LEE had claimed that those thin little bands are some gift from God that will always be just the right size, or miraculously conform to fit our every reloading need, just because they are so thin. No such claim has been made that I have ever seen, especially not on the LEE site. What they do say is in fact quite different, they state... "MOST BULLETS FROM LEE MOLDS CAN BE USED, AS CAST WITHOUT SIZING" (I'm not yelling here, they had it all in caps, so I do too
They in no way specify just the micro groove bullets. If someone told us "standard lube groove bullets from LEE molds don't need to be sized", we would likely give them the old stink eye! I have never heard that stated, nor seen it in print,
but just mention micro grooves and get ready to hear "YEA, those don't need to be sized!" LEE does say the micro bands create less friction and higher velocities, given the same pressure.
Thank you for your time, and please forgive me for going "nucUlar" on the subject
Now perhaps I can get a decent night's sleep with that off my chest! LOL!
Cheers!
MagLvr

[sledgehammer001]

LOL. I size ALL my cast boolits. Period! If I size them, I know they're consistent and round. From my bitty little .225 Bator, to my 220 grain .310" for my '06. Maybe I'm just OCD, but it works for me!

[maglvr]

You are not alone, Sir.
I too size all mine, I don't think i've ever casted a boolit that I didn't size before I loaded it into a case.

[mattw]

That line always made me giggle. So, you have a .358 bore and stuff a .360 bullet down it... definitely no gas is gonna get by it... definitely pressure is gonna be up and definitely velocity and accuracy are affected. I cast 94/3/3 and it really needs a proper fit to shoot anywhere near well. I can't imagine droppin boolits, sloshing them around in magic no-leading goo and shooting them without knowing if they really fit. But, I reload for accuracy (number 1), enjoyment (definite number 2) and economy. Proper sizing and lubrication strongly affect #1 and #2.

[bedbugbilly]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . er . . . "vent".

I think the only Lee molds I have that are "micro groove" - i.e. TL are in pistol calibers - and as hard as is to say it, one of them is my best shooting design out of my 38s. I don't size them as I really don't see the need to - they shoot just fine for me. I haven't tried any of their TL rifle designs as I have not had much luck with their rifle molds in rifle design - problems with out of round, undersize, etc. so I now waltz on by Lee and get NOE or similar.

Yea . . to claim they don't have to be sized? It's all marketing hype. The particular rifle will determine if they have to be sized or not . . . if it won't chamber, of course it has to ve sized.

Lee makes some good items at reasonable prices - I use a lot of different Lee dies but I'm not married to the. I bought a Lee mold in a pistol boolit one time to try and then if it worked, I was going to get the design in a better mold. The Lee mold I was sent must have been made by a blindfolded machinist - when closed, cavities were offset from each other, alignment pins not installed the way the right depth, should have been a reject. Lee's CS was less than stelar on that one - claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years.

Anyway . . . Lee isn't the only one that has outlandish claims . . . so why give it a second thought? It's not worth the time and effort - have another cup of coffee and figure it's a lot like the "net" . . . where everything has to be true 'cause I saw it on the Internet! LOL

So, just out of curiousity . . are you using one of their "micro groove" rifle molds? If so, and you size . . how are they shooting for you?

Have a good one!

[LenH]

I am not a fan of the micro groove bullets by any means, it is a personal thing and if you like those I am not going to look down my nose at you.

I have been in this hobby for nearly 40 years and have sized everything that I cast. I have used LLA and am not a real fan of that either, probably because I was using
it wrong but again that is just me. I have a old RCBS lube sizer and a Magma Star. I have different lubes in both and use each according to my needs.

Like I tell most new guys FIT IS KING all else is secondary.

[GhostHawk]

I have loaded at least as many cast boolits without sizing as I have sized.

Way I see it, if it fits it should be good enough.

Now I can see that for those looking for the upper edge in accuracy that sizing could be an advantage.

I have one boolit, the Lee .314 90 gr tumble lubed truncated cone that I have shot as cast, sized at .312 (Reamed out .311 sizing die) .311 and .309.

It has worked well in all situations.

I have had batches of bullets that roughly 2/3rds to 3/4's were the correct size, so I loaded them as cast.
The ones that were a touch oversize got sized down a smidge then loaded.

Way I see it this is one of those "Your gun, your bullets, your standards, your time, you decide" issues.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

[Soundguy]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . er . . . "vent".

I think the only Lee molds I have that are "micro groove" - i.e. TL are in pistol calibers - and as hard as is to say it, one of them is my best shooting design out of my 38s. I don't size them as I really don't see the need to - they shoot just fine for me. I haven't tried any of their TL rifle designs as I have not had much luck with their rifle molds in rifle design - problems with out of round, undersize, etc. so I now waltz on by Lee and get NOE or similar.

Yea . . to claim they don't have to be sized? It's all marketing hype. The particular rifle will determine if they have to be sized or not . . . if it won't chamber, of course it has to ve sized.

Lee makes some good items at reasonable prices - I use a lot of different Lee dies but I'm not married to the. I bought a Lee mold in a pistol boolit one time to try and then if it worked, I was going to get the design in a better mold. The Lee mold I was sent must have been made by a blindfolded machinist - when closed, cavities were offset from each other, alignment pins not installed the way the right depth, should have been a reject. Lee's CS was less than stelar on that one - claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years.

Anyway . . . Lee isn't the only one that has outlandish claims . . . so why give it a second thought? It's not worth the time and effort - have another cup of coffee and figure it's a lot like the "net" . . . where everything has to be true 'cause I saw it on the Internet! LOL

So, just out of curiousity . . are you using one of their "micro groove" rifle molds? If so, and you size . . how are they shooting for you?

Have a good one!

I think it really depends on the alloy you use and the mold itself. I size ALMOST all of my cast, but i *DO* have a .358 LRN mold for pistol boolits that drops just perfect as cast with lyman #2 or even a hair softer as long as it is at least 10-12 bhn. ... and it is.. wait for it.. micro-groove. For those.. I tumble lube them and load.

[Loudy13]

Size everything is my motto ....but I'm kinda picky I guess when it comes to consistency, reliability, accuracy !

[Dusty Bannister]

I have visited with a lot of cast bullet shooters that have been having problems with leading in handguns (mostly 9MM) and frequently they have been shooting the Lee TL with the Lee Liquid Alox. They usually will say "But Lee says they do not need to be sized." If you are shooting a bullet that drops at .357" and the groove is .356" then you only have just the slight contact of the top of the Micro Groove ring making contact with the barrel. If the bullet is larger, then the contact with the barrel is greater, and the resistance to leaking gas is greater. Sizing is not mandatory, but a casual inspection of a lubed bullet will make it clearly obvious if you have an under size issue to correct.

I have lost count of the number of bullet molds that I have and use, but can say that I do not have any TL styles in my possession. I do have some LLA, but much prefer the soft wax lubes. I do not shoot indoors so any smoke is just not a consideration. As previously stated, it is a matter of what is important to the shooter.

[WHITETAIL]

I am from the Old School and size everything.

[reddog81]

Any bullet that will fit into the case and then chamber into a gun doesn't "need" to be sized. The throat or barrel will do a fine job of sizing down a bullet. Sizing down a bullet .001 to.003 doesn't take much effort. I typically size everything just for consistencies sake, but have shot a number of unsized, tumble lubed bullets with moderate success. I have a couple of WW1 era 45 ACP revolvers with large throats and I can use bullets as cast with a coat of powder coat and those work better than anything else.

[Kraschenbirn]

Only boolits that I don't size are those for my BPCRs which are cast from 25/1 to be shot at BP velocities. These are all pan-lubed and loaded 'as cast'...over BP or an equivalent charge of smokeless. My experience with these rounds...and I've tried both...tell me that I get measurably better accuracy from my single-shots with 'as cast' than with 'sized & lubed'.

Oh yeah, just my opinion, but...micro-groove or conventional lube-groove...tumble-lube sucks. Been there, done that, and moved on to 'size-after-powder coat' for all my handgun rounds.

Bill

[mdi]

Jes wondering, what's the point of this thread? To size or not to size, that is the question. If one knows what the diameter is of their cast bullets, they have the answer. Shooting a .44 with 431" throats, and the mold drops bullets of .431"? Don't size. If the mold drops bullets .436", then size...

[Soundguy]

Agreed.. I never seen the need to push a .358 slug thru a .358 sizer just to get some finger exercise and muscle memory.

Its all about size. If your mold drops the *exact* size you need... You are good.

[dondiego]

Micro Groove barrels typically need larger diameter boolets and tumble lube boolets sometimes fit that bill without sizing...........

[Bookworm]

This subject comes around occasionally. I can say this - I've been reloading for almost 30 years, casting for much less.

I have never sized a Lee tumble lube (micro groove) boolit.

I do cast and shoot them in handguns, at least 44 and 38/357. They fit and shoot fine without the extra step, I see no need to size. And that is where I got the idea they needn't be sized - by shooting them unsized.

What works for me may not work for you. You want to size them ? Have at it !

[maglvr]

Actually, I don't own a single rifle mold, I live in a place where a long shot is 50 yards, and the long guns I carry most are 357 and 45 COLT calibers, with the 357 usually getting the nod when I head out the door. 357 Is the caliber I would choose above all others, if I could only have one.

[maglvr]

"claimed I wasn't casting correctly - hmm . . been casting 55 years."
Well no wonder you had some problems, that is to be expected, what with being a novice of only 55 years! Just stick with it, and don't give up and you will do just fine I am sure! Surely they can't expect a fellow to learn everything overnight!

[ascast]

I NEVER size any bullets unless they don't chamber; from any mold.