Hunting with new HP

[Tripplebeards]

Sixguns what crimp style did you use? Looks like it pulled in nicely.

I'm a hollow point shooter as well. There are a lot of hp haters here.lol

As far as I'm concerned if you hit them like I do, bow shots, behind the shoulder and take out the Lungs and heart it should make for an instant, quick, clean kill with a tremendous amount of shock transfer vs a hard boolit that sails right through with the same shot placement. Shot placement is the key and dead is dead. Make sure to post pics and how you did.

[nagantguy]

The various hollow point molds sold here in the group buys seem to be very popular so folks must be getting good accuracy and good results on game.

[mattw]

I have not taken many deer with a revolver, but the few that I did were wonderful. I am a 41 mag guy and I have killed a 325 pounder with the 230 grain OWC from LBT and a 280 pounder with the Saeco 311 230 grain SWC. The SWC appeared to give the most damage visible during dressing. Both were shot at around 75 yards with a moderate load of 2400. I have dropped 2 as well with 357 mags, also 6 inch revolvers. For those loads I use a commercial variant of H110 from many years ago, I suspect it has been known as H108 as it runs 10 to 12% faster than H110. For these I was loading a very old Lyman designed 158 grain HP Keith type and a 200 grain LBT OWC. Both were shot in the range of 75 yards as well. The HP was dropped into my best deer to data, an 18 point that dressed to 345 pounds! It was a monster! The little 158 broke the entry shoulder, tore the heck out of everything inside and stopped in the exit shoulder breaking it badly. The recovered slug was approaching 1 inch in diameter! In IL most of my deer have been taken with 12 gauge slugs, darn state laws! But, I always carry either the 357 or the 41 incase I get a good chance to use one of them!

[white eagle]

I never doubt Dick and his abilities
man is livin the dream
rock on Dick

[sixshot]

mattw, congratulations, those are some really big deer! I'm not surprised because those midwestern deer are some of the biggest deer in the country, many of them are bigger than our western mule deer. Some people don't believe that but it's true. A lot of your deer eat better than ours with the corn fields, etc.
The 41 magnum is one of my life long favorites & I've killed a lot of game with it including elk, bear & antelope along with many deer. The Saeco bullet you mention I think is actually a #411 at 230 grs, I have that same mould & it's a personal favorite. The cow elk in the photo was taken many years ago as she walked up through the sage towards me & my napping neighbor. She was almost facing us but not quite, I had a bit of an angle & put one of the 230 gr Keith slugs tight behind the right front shoulder. She whirled & ran down hill about 30 yds & then started turning around in circles so I couldn't shoot again & then she dropped over.
The bullet had went through a lung, the intestines & all the way back where it exited just in front of her left hip, you can see the fat sticking out of the exit hole right by my old Lawrence #7 shoulder holster. The bullet had almost went through her lengthways! I've also taken elk with the 250 gr LBT WFN, it's a real hammer, broke both front shoulders with an exit.



Dick

[dubber123]

I always read your stories and enjoy them, but are you sure you have the mold # in your first post correct? I'm pretty sure the 452190 is the Old Ideal/Lyman RF design for the 45 Colt. Maybe yours is the 452423 perhaps?

[Wolfer]

I too have had good luck with HPs. I use the same alloy in everything because I'm lazy or I like things simple. It's about 50/50 or a little softer. Bhn usually runs around 10. In my 45 colt Ive used the 452424 with a semi cup HP and a NOE 454-255 RF with the cup HP. Ive also taken several deer with solids. For me to recover one of my HPs I have to break both shoulders or take a very raking shot. In both cases the boolit will be bulging the hide at the end of the wound channel.
My HPs nearly always exit with a 1" or so hole. Blood trails are generally decent.

The only 30 cal molds I own are a 311041 with a small HP in one cavity and a 311008. The 311008 I just use for plinking but the other has took a good pile of deer and coyotes. Ran at about 1800 fps if it hits heavy bone maybe it comes apart. Don't know, the exit hole is 2" or bigger. If I don't hit heavy bone exit holes are good but not fist sized. Expansion was obvious.
There was one deer shot with my 30-40 that the boolit acted like a nosler partition. 30 cal entrance with about a 45 cal exit but inside looked like a bomb went off. Deer staggered about 10 feet and went down.

Oddly enough deer will go about the same distance no matter which boolit is used. My own experience with HPs has been good and I will continue to use them. Every one else should use whatever they like.
Woody

[sixshot]

Dubber123, the 452190 is the old Lyman design as you mention & I "think" that's what this mould is labeled but I might be wrong, I'll check it tomorrow. Went hunting again today but there was a whole crew of workers right in the crick (creek) for you southern guys, with a couple of track hoes & a bunch of other equipment. I have no idea what they are doing but it must be quite a project & it takes a lot of permitting now days to get a track hoe into a stream!
Anyway, I saw some deer but they were very wild from all the company that had descended on them. Also I only saw maybe a dozen antelope where I have been seeing 3 times that many.
There are no trees in this area, it is very tough to hunt because it's so open. You have to hunt the little draws & pieces of edge cover. I did take a photo of one of the places where the antelope cross under the fence. Antelope will rarely ever jump a fence but they can go under one very fast!
I took this big old buck Jackrabbit at 22 yds with my OM Ruger 45 & the 217 gr HP, it punched his ticket pretty good.
The one photo of the Alfalfa with the pump house in the back ground I'm crawling on my hands & knees, stalking a herd of 7 doe antelope. I probably crawled 200 yds but couldn't close on them because they were feeding away from me. If you hunt antelope it's a real good idea to wear knee pads, I always do!








Dick

[lksmith]

I don't see why some don't like HP's
The way I see it, if a hollowpoint fails (cavity fills, no exp) it acts as a WFN.
If it works, it makes a bigger hole than a non expanding boolit.

Granted the biggest things I hunt are whitetail and hogs, but I hate tracking and a bigger hole/energy transfer means less if any tracking.

I've only had one that didn't exit and it was a 240gr XTP HP at 1800-1900fps from muzzlaloader on a doe around 100 yds. found it just under the skin on the opposite side. Not sure why it didn't go through as Ihave used the same load, same shot on bigger animals. But the deer cut a flip and was DRT

[jmort]

"I don't see why some don't like HP's"
I doubt anyone cares what other people use. Many here think Lead Bullets Technology is the way to go and others do not. Use what you like. Both are proven.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

IKsmith,

As seen by the length of this thread and others which address the same subject, we like what we like and each have our own opinions, likes and dislikes.

However, I come down on the side of reliability and consistency!

This is the same reason that all my hunting rifles are floated and if wood stocked, the actions bedded. I am very concerned that there be no outside influence on shot placement such as that possibly caused by heat/cold, high or low humidity, hard or soft rest etc.

Talk about wound channel, one of the largest wound channel I've personally had on a game animal was with my first 45/70 deer. That deer taken with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose bullet from an LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) mold with a muzzle velocity of 2300fps. The deer at about 100yds. My first reaction when I began to handle the downed critter was, "just what in the world have I turned loose on the game population." Huge/excessive, like 4" wound channel. The bone and tissue not minced like might be expected with an expanding bullet, simply gone, pushed out a relatively small exit hole in the off side hide.

That one experience alone made me a believer of all the glowing reports I'd read about the results when using a large meplat case bullet.

I believe the "problem" in that situation was an excess of velocity.

Thankfully that bullet gave me neither the accuracy or group consistency I desired with my 45/70 so I moved on with a mold for a 465gr Wide Flat Nose which I push out the barrel at a much more sedate velocity of about 1650fps. Results, providing of course as always good shot placement, the deer are dead where they stood and the elk down in less time then it takes to tell about it.

Same result last Fall on two deer taken with a WFN 275/280gr. fired from my RUGER 77/44 at a velocity of 1750fps. Dead where they stood! Complete penetration.

As we all know, cast bullet expansion is now and always will be a factor of impact velocity and alloy. For that reason I choose the well proven and reliable results found with the large meplat cast bullets. If it expands to any degree, so be it, but if not, I was NOT expecting or depending on it for the desired results.

I use it for the same reason as I float all hunting rifle barrels. CONSISTANCY!

Plus, I am not prone to experiment to the same degree as some other folk. Doesn't make me right and them wrong, that is just my way. I seek to find an optimum bullet/load combination for each rifle and that is what I stay with. One load for each rifle, and the only thing that might keep me "experimenting" is the striving for more accuracy. I already have well proven bullets for both my jacketed bullet hunting rifles and with the cast WFN, for my cast bullet rifles.

Shot to shot Consistency and reliability!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[sixshot]

I checked my bullet mould & it says 453490, it's a Miha mould so it is a clone of the 452190 like I thought. Doesn't really matter, it's a fine looking bullet & I have no doubt it will work just fine. If I didn't think it would I wouldn't use it. In all my 50 years of taking big game with SIX GUNS & cast bullets I've only recovered the one I showed earlier where, even though it was a "Penta" HP it went almost lengthways through that buck after breaking the big shoulder bone.
Crusty Old Coot, I'll remind you again, this thread I started is about hand guns & hand guns bullets, would you go back & read that again. Telling us what you can go with 450-500 gr bullets in your 45/70 rifles or 44 carbines at 1700-1800 fps has nothing to do with what we're talking about here......does it?
If you want to start a thread on muzzle loaders or rifles or carbines start at the top! That would make things CONSISTENT!

Dick

[Larry Gibson]

............The way I see it, if a hollowpoint fails (cavity fills, no exp) it acts as a WFN.
If it works, it makes a bigger hole than a non expanding boolit.........

I concur 100%. I have shot/killed numerous deer, elk on license and as an LEO to put them down along with injured domestic stock with various calibers of handguns using various types of bullets, jacketed and cast. At handgun impact velocities (800 - 1400 fps) I consistently found a soft cast, binary alloyed HP bullet (with an appropriate HP) to give more than adequate penetration and to kill quicker (translate that into less tracking) that any other bullet style including the WFN. Now, with that said, let me further state they all ended up killing the animal with appropriate heart/lung shots. The only difference was how long it took the animal to die. Yes, WFN bullets do kill quite well also but as lksmith said, an appropriate HP "acts as a WFN. If it works, it makes a bigger hole than a non expanding boolit". The OPs bullet will do the same as does my own .44 Devastators except they do expand quite well with usual through and through penetration across the range that I will use them out of my revolver.

Attachment 227197

I would probably use a WFN soft cast (because any expansion it does increases it's terminal effectiveness) if I did not have a HP mould or the means to properly HP my handgun hunting bullets.

[Went2kck]

I have been trying to get a new HP mold to cast decent bullets. I have gotten some but like a 80% rejection at the pot and probably 8% at the scale and finale inspection before lubing them. Some of those may get remelted after that. The Hp dont form well and just not having good luck with the deep hp pins. I use 2lbs WW with 1lbs of pure lead. some pewter is added to. Any help in this would be much appreciated. Those bullets look really good.

[megasupermagnum]

I cast hotter than most people, I've kind of settled on 775 F as my standard. With very large hollow points and wheel weight alloy, I've only managed shattered bullets in my experience. Most of the time, I don't think it's a big deal. One combo I found was the 44 caliber 250 grain bullet from GT bullets, it is very similar to the devestator. When cast of their 96/2/2 alloy, and driven to 1400 fps (quite possible it was faster), all I recover is shrapnel. The only sizable chunk was the base of the bullet,and I think it only weighed about 100 grains. I would not shoot that combo at a large animal. I like lead/tin alloys for hollow points. They seem to cast better, look better, and no doubt they hold together better.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks sixshot!

I also cast a 310gr LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) Wide Flat Nose that I put out the muzzle of my 5.5" RedHawk at right at 1300FPS.

So I'm not totally clueless on your subject, but just the same, thanks for the comment.

But casting that bullet for the handgun is what brought me to the point of using the same bullet configuration in the rifles.

Thanks once more.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[lksmith]

I have been trying to get a new HP mold to cast decent bullets. I have gotten some but like a 80% rejection at the pot and probably 8% at the scale and finale inspection before lubing them. Some of those may get remelted after that. The Hp dont form well and just not having good luck with the deep hp pins. I use 2lbs WW with 1lbs of pure lead. some pewter is added to. Any help in this would be much appreciated. Those bullets look really good.

Get and keep the pins hot. I tend to run a little hotter than most when casting. since I generally PC my boolits the heat from the coating softens them back up a bit

[jmort]

What Crusty Deary Ol'Coot said.
WFN/LFN will compress, aka expand on impact with the proper lead alloy.
No sane person uses HPs on dangerous game/really big game.
Look, and learn from the Linebaugh Seminars. The HPs are a joke penetration-wise. Look at all the knowledge gained from hunters in Africa. Deer, use a .22 LR or a .30-06. Use a hollow-point. A LFN will shoot end to end on the largest grizzly bears out of large caliber handguns. The HP, not even close.

[wgg]

The first sentence in this thread, the op makes it clear for deer hunting. I don't understand why he would need to penetrate African game or a Grizzly bear. I believe that is something everyone could agree on.

[Tripplebeards]

I have been trying to get a new HP mold to cast decent bullets. I have gotten some but like a 80% rejection at the pot and probably 8% at the scale and finale inspection before lubing them. Some of those may get remelted after that. The Hp dont form well and just not having good luck with the deep hp pins. I use 2lbs WW with 1lbs of pure lead. some pewter is added to. Any help in this would be much appreciated. Those bullets look really good.

Get everything hotter...mold, pins, and your alloy. I run everything so hot I get finning and then I turn my alloy heat setting down from there. I've been learning you can never be too hot when pouring hp's.


Back to hp's for hunting, I've been taught on this site that its critical to pick and or fine tune your alloy to match the speed your shooting to get the desired results. Whether you want a extremely deep penatrating and expanding hp, a deep shedding pedal hp, or a shallow rapidly expanding hp. I played around with four different alloys using a devastator mold that I tested out of my ruger 77/44. I'm not pushing my HP's out of pistols at 800-1200 fps like 99% of the shooters here and am running them up to and over 1800 fps. At full throttle loads(23.8 gr of w296) I've got an 80/20 w12 pewter alloy with a BH of 15.4 that will give deep penatration and hold together make a great mushroom. I would bet my life on this boolit alloy and load combo to smash a grizzly bears skull and keep penatrating all day long. I always get a kick out of "I need a boolit that will shoot from one end of a grizzly bear to the other and out the other end" I can tell you I've shot through black bear doing so and they drop quicker when the boolit expands and stays inside the animal with all its energy transfer dumped inside if it shocking it to close if not an instant death. To much pentration has negative affects...it's like hitting an animal with an arrow. No shock or energy transfer 99% of the time and the animal will die but runs off to bleed out. If I use straight coww with a BH of 13.4 the pedals will blow off and the rest of the boolit will keep going. When tested A 50/50 or 16:1 alloy both acted about the same. At high speeds (1675fps plus)the boolits expand but look like the lead melted while it was doing so. You can check out my home page for photos. Larry along with others here taught me it's crucial to match your alloy with velocity when using hp's and I believe this will put a deer on the ground quicker if done correctly than any sold will with a textbook broadside heart and lung shot.