Rifled Pump Shotgun... Advice?

[CastingFool]

when I was looking to buy a 12 ga, I checked out both the 870 and the 500. The 870 felt solid, while the 500 felt tinny. Ended up getting the 870 with a 20" IC barrel with rifle sights. At 50 yds, it would group either Winchester or Remington slugs into 2-3/4" groups all day long if I did my part. When I got into turkey hunting, I looked for a 2nd barrel with removable chokes. Ended up buying an 870 Express 3" chamber. by simply switching chokes, it does double duty for both turkeys and geese. Never had any trouble from either gun, the first one is about 40 yrs old, and probably has had 2500 rds. through it. I shot skeet with it for about 3 summers, but it is my dedicated deer gun now.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well, I gotta say I am glad I started this thread! You guys are full of good info! I obviously picked the right crowd to ask.

As for the bear protection bit, I agree totally, a rifled barrel is not required and round balls or sold nose hard cast Foster will do fine. However, for the "plinking" fun a rifled barrel would be nice. I have lots of smoothbores to play with though only two with actual slug barrels.

I am about set up to start rifling a choke tube with slow twist rifling as well and if I get that done before I buy the new toy and it works well, the new toy may just be another smoothbore that I will put the rifled choke tube in for longer range "plinking" (artillery fire more like!). If I don't have it finished then I'll likely go rifled just to have one. The jury is still out between Remington and Mossberg. Both should be just fine for my wants and needs. Hmmmm... maybe I should get one of each!

As for Remington being made in China, I haven't heard that but certainly can't dispute it.

Hah! I see you posted a pic of the shotgun with the Cutts Compensator on it Randy! Do you still have the Cutts? Those and the old Power-Pac systems used to be pretty common. I like them better than screw in chokes because they are beefier. The screw in chokes I bought to rifle are pretty thin and the solder on barrel adapter is really thin! Actually I have thought about the versatility aspect too and an HD gun like yours with possibly an add on rifled barrel would be nice.

Still thinking. Got to make up my mind soon but still thinking. Got to re-read this thread too! Lots to digest.

Thanks,
Longbow

LB: Yes I do still have that Cutts compensator on that gun shown with the IC choke tube installed. I also have the Spreader, Modified, Full, Extra Full and Extra/Extra full choke tubes and the wrench. All were reblued when the gun was refurbished by Ithaca last year so everything matches. That gun was made in 1940! So now I have a brand new M37 that was made in 1940, and is well broken in! It is the smoothest running Pump Gun I've ever handled by a substantial margin.

If you're going to do a M500 get a short barreled one like my HD gun as with the 20" ones the barrel nut is right on the end of the mag tube and there's no room for anything on the end of the barrel.

If you watched "Polar Bear Town" about the guides in Churchill they all carry 18" pump shotguns either 870 or M500.

I still have that other cutts compensator minus the choke tube and since I'm going to cut the barrel of on that gun to 18" it won't be needed. If you're interested maybe we can make a deal?

As far as the Remington made in China,, it was a Remington Mariner I believe on the Remington site and I was at a LGS when they found out and everybody in the place was screaming!!!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

More: don't get me wrong, Remington 870's are very good guns and far superior to Mossbergs as "Field Guns" or "Trap and Skeet Guns", however IMHO the M500/590 is far superior as a "Tactical Gun."

With a Field Gun or Clays Gun loading and unloading are done thru the loading port on the bottom of the gun, and seldom done under pressure. The slide release is in front of the trigger guard and the safety is behind the trigger guard which is fine for a Right Handed Shooter, and entirely usable in the field on on a Trap Field. They even have Shell Catchers for these guns so you don't have to chase your empties.

You'd probably never load a shell in thru the Ejection Port.

With a Tactical Gun, Port Loading is part of the Manual of Arms. When you run the gun dry in the heat of a conflict and they are shooting at you, you probably won't have time to fully load the magazine, so the accepted technique is to single load the gun thru the Ejection Port like shown above and keep firing back at the opponent until time and cover permit reloading the magazine. With practice this becomes easy.

In a class you will be loading and unloading the gun frequently, The M500 is just easier to do this with. The rear placed slide release is easier to access than the front mounted one on the 870 or even the M37 Ithaca.

The Ithaca can't be Port loaded simply because there is only one way in and out of that gun. You have to load thru the magazine and that's it. Fine for a field gun but not as good for a Tac gun. Browning designed that gun because he was an avid Duck Hunter and wanted all his empties to land in the boat so he could reload them. It does that perfectly! I love mine and it was my first shotgun that I bought from a friend for $100 in 1973 after I got out of the AF. Now that it's been refurbished he recently offered me $1500 for it. Gonna keep it for a while longer.

The other usage for port loading is changing the round in the gun from buckshot to a slug. Two ways to do this. If the magazine isn't fully loaded and there is room for another round you stuff a slug into it and cycle the action and waste the round in the chamber in favor of the slug which is on deck..

If the mag is fully loaded,,, You cycle the slide slowly and then tip the gun over on its side to dump the chambered round and the on deck round out. Both rounds will fall out the Ejection Port into your right hand and can be pocketed,,, and then you port load the slug, and you still have a nearly full magazine to fall back on. If more slugs are required you can load them into the magazine as needed and continue firing.

The 870 is just harder to do these things with due to the smaller Ejection Port and placement of the slide release. Not impossible, just harder.

Dual Action Bars and Extractors help the M500 cope with more severe usage better as well.

The 18" M500's are 5+1, and the 20" ones with full length mags are 7+1. If being used as a Bear Gun which you have to carry around all day, I'd go with the short one with a nice side mounted sling so the gun lays flat on your back.

I'd just run low recoil slugs which are running 1300 fps. I know you'd probably be shooting you own concoctions as would I,,, but keep in mind without the Vang Comped Barrel treatment, the recoil from anything considered Full Power like Federal Maximum Slugs at 1610 fps are going to knock the snot out of you in the light gun, so follow up shots might be a problem. I can't say enough about the Vang Comp Barrel mods as the difference it made to my gun was literally nite and day! I will be sending the 18' bbl over as soon as I can.

Brownell's also makes this neato little Steel Safety Button with the raised rear end that makes operating the safety much easier. $15 and you can install it when you take the gun apart to deburr everything on the inside. see pic.

Look again at my HD gun. That's sounding alot like what you need. It was made from a Field Gun I got for $160.

My extended .02!

Randy

[rking22]

Hate to say this, but China might make a better 870 than Rem nowadays! And this from a very dedicated 870 fan, I even shoot international skeet with one! The express 870s Ive handled in recent years feel like they are full of gravel.
Yep, M37s are slick, that restored 1940 gun is beaytiful!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes it came out nice. I bought the wood in 1976 and it was from Fajen. I never did anything with it as I didn't want to screw it up. I have a friend who does alot of work on high end shotguns and he did the wood work including cutting the pistol grip stock down to strait English, he also did the checkering and it all came out nice.. Then I sent it to Ithaca for rebluing and internal refurbish. They replaced the trigger and one other small part and reblued the entire gun with the choke tubes and everything.

It is easily the nicest one I've ever seen.

Randy

[longbow]

That is a beaut Randy!

My BPS shares the same bottom load/eject features plus it has a selector to disengage the magazine feed so a guy can single load or dump a round from the chamber and replace with something else. It is a bit awkward but still a nice feature. Not sure if the Ithaca has that option.

All in all I like a side eject pump better though if I find myself needing to feed more rounds through the ejection port during a bear charge I'm thinking I need to work on my speed and reflex action some!

I looked at the Cutts but for my purposes I like the Pachmayr Power-Pac better as the choke tube is set back and close to the barrel which with a rifled tube would be better I think. But thanks for the offer. I have got to get to rifling that choke tube and silver soldering the adapter onto my single shot barrel. As mentioned in another thread the plan is deep rifling of at least 0.010" and 1:72" twist. I built the rifling machine about 3 or 4 years ago and tested it on 3/4" pipe... worked well. Life got in the way and I didn't get a choke tube rifled to try but I'm working my way around to it again. A mere aside as it is not necessary for bear protection but would be nice for plinking (yes, .73 cal. plinking!)

Yes, a side by or over/under with two hefty slug loads may well be a better bear buster due to not having to do anything but point and pull two triggers (yes, I like two triggers). However, I get back to the "plinking" aspect and so rifled barrel comes back into play. I have smoothbores.

What I would really like is an H&R Ultra Slug Hunter for plinking and a shorter version of the Remington MODEL 870 SPS SUPERSLUG with a standard wood or synthetic stock for bear protection. The Superslug with an 18" to 20" barrel and open sights along with a "normal" stock would be my ideal pump gun I think... and to be fair if Mossberg offered similar it would be in the running too. But I'm not spending $900.00 to cut a barrel off, replace the stock and get open sights mounted so i'll be looking for used and not too expensive new shortly, bearing in mind the advice I've gotten here.

Thanks,
Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I believe the BPS is essentially an Ithaca M37 with a Mag cutoff. After all JMB did design the M37?

Port loading probably wouldn't come into play during a bear attack unless you sucked so bad that you couldn't hit the bear with the first 6 shots ! If that was the case then maybe port loading another round to use on yourself would be in order. You Canucks aren't allowed to carry handguns in the field are you?

I have seen one model of the M500 or 590 that had the 18" bbl with open sights. I kind of want that barrel for my HD gun. If I find it I'll shoot you a link so you can look at it.

Randy

I looked around on the Mossberg site and found this 24" rifled barrel which would go on my short gun. This might work for you. The prices advertised on the shotguns are pretty reasonable $4-500 US even for the 590 series guns which are the heavy duty guns. http://www.mossberg.com/store/500-12...hot-92056.html

You should look around there and see if something strikes your fancy.

Randy

[longbow]

Yup! John Browning had his fingers in a lot of designs that's for sure!

I've looked at the 24" barrels but that is a bit on the long side, 18" to 20" is a good length in my mind. I'd like a rifled bull barrel in 20" with open sights on a good reliable pump. Good to have it pinned or shimmed for slugs too though hardly an issue for the bear consideration. Minute of pie plate at 25 yards will do for bear attack but better accuracy never hurt. Good round ball loads from smoothbore are way better than that anyway so hard for a rifled gun to do worse I'd say.

I was looking at the 590's too. I don't see any rifled barrels available for the 590 but if there were it would make a good combo with HD barrel and rifled barrel.

Maybe I should get my butt in gear and rifle the choke tube I have. I bought an extra full choke tube to bore out then rifle. It isn't as long as I wanted but it is way easier than making one from scratch. If my deep groove slow twist choke tube works well enough it opens up some options.

Winter weather is coming soon so bears will be asleep and I will have time in the shop.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

If you want a 20" fully rifled barrel and iron sights, that pretty much narrows it down to the 870. I guess you have to ask yourself, is the rifled barrel really for hunting/defense or just fun? Like I said, you can get turkey models for cheaper than anything labeled tactical. Same gun with a short barrel, threaded for chokes, and a vent rib opens up possibilities for sights beyond what they come with. The 590 just might be the toughest gun in existence, and I mean it, but you want the 500. I didn't see any accuracy improvement with a pinned barrel with iron sights. It's only for a receiver mounted sight, and in that case I consider it a requirement.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I meant to say that I saw the open sights on there as well but no gun with them. I have seen a 590 with 18" bbl and open sights at a gun shop in Simi, but I didn't get the model number and it didn't show up on the website.

The Rifled barrel I sent you to was 24" and had a integral scope mount on it. A Burris Fastfire or Bushnell TRS 25 on that barrel and then cut 6" off it, would be a viable way to get to an 18" rifled barrel. or you could have Williams Open Sights attached to it.

My Tac Gun was originally the Bottom of the Line $205 HD gun they were selling at Big 5 in the 80's/ with a 18" bbl and short mag. My Father in Law gave it to me 25 years ago. He bought it to shoot a raccoon that lived in their attic and then realized it would poke holes in the house so he got rid of it by giving it to me.

I bought the 20" bbl and long mag tube from Brownell's for $115 about 20 years ago and put it on.. I kept the short barrel,,, and it went onto the older field gun I got recently and then I sold the Barrel Mag Tube and Wood furniture to a guy here on swappin and sellin.

I've got $160 for the gun+110 for the Magpul Furniture and another $75 in XS Front Sight and steel Safety for a total of @$350. - the $150 I got for the parts and I'm back at $200 then with another +$200 for the Vang Comp ends up at $400 which for what it is = Pretty Cheap. I will make one of my 1.5" wide slings for it with QD swivels so if it needs to go with me I can sling it. Teh sling on the side allows for cross body, cross back or conventional carry for the gun. Good to have options when in the field.

As far as Side Saddles I'm really partial to Brown Coat Tactical Velcro Side Saddles. They are very well made and stick on the side of the receiver with Velcro Tape. $15 each and if you have a full gun and 6 more on the side you are pretty well equipped for short trips into the forest. No problem to carry a few more shells with you if you choose.

I have Streamlights for alot of my guns and I move them around as needed. Th HD gun has one so I don't shoot my wife or cats, but it comes right off easily and can go on my Glocks as well.

The Magpul Fore End allows easy attachment of Accessory Pic Rails with their M-Loc System. The stock has places for sling swivel attachment or more permanent slots to thread a sling thru. I use the same material that 5.11 makes their belts out of and use QD swivels for attachment to gun, that way I can remove them quickly if they're not needed.

What I'm trying to show you here is what, after over several years of playing with these two guns, I've come up with for a workable setup. The Tac gun has been to 2 Front Sight classes (another next month)which helps to wring out your setup pretty quickly. It has also been to a few 3 gun shoots which help with your kit as well.

All this is directly transferable to a Backup Gun for field use as you need fast handling, easy reloading and easy to carry as part of the program. I once saw a guide who was friends with the late Tred Barta who liked to shoot big bears with his long bow. Dan always carried a Rem 870 for a back up gun and I didn't realize why until I took that first Defensive Shotgun Class. Now I understand perfectly! Shotguns with buckshot and/or slugs are extremely formidable weapons !!!

When my Jeep is done that short gun will probably ride in the box behind the seats as varmint protection.

Here's some close up pics of the HD gun.

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

But I'm not spending $900.00 to cut a barrel off, replace the stock and get open sights mounted so i'll be looking for used and not too expensive new shortly, bearing in mind the advice I've gotten here.

Over here you could plunk down $200 and walk away with an older European-made s/s - then chop off the last two or three inches and have a nice bear protection gun (if two shots ain't enough you'd probably be bear food anyway) Not many uses side-by-sides anymore (unless it's high quality guns with snob appeal) If you could live with a 16 gauge you could likely have it for free.

[Tripplebeards]

I have a savage 220 I bought for Iowa hunting a few seasons ago before they changed over to straight wall pistol calibers. I bought a RA 450 bushmaster to replace it for that purpose. I still have the savage. I used it one year. It's the stainless camo version. I acraglassed the action, installed a Nikon monarch 2.5x10 40mm BDC and a DNZ mount. The 20 guage rifled shotgun can consistently put three Remington 3" accutips all in one big hole at a 100 yards. I haven't seen any other shotguns capable of achieving this kind of accuracy. I'm pretty impressed with it. I tried 5 different "tip" type slugs and the worst group still stayed under 2" off the bench. I'd recommend the savage. I've had a few rifled Remington 12 gauges and they were pie plate accurate at 50 yards at best. No thanks.

I use to love my pump 870's back in the 80's. They were fun to shoot for trap and small game. I graduated up to a beretta a390 semi automatic back in 2000' and never looked back. I use it for waterfowl, turkeys, and predators. No noise or movement to cycle another shell into the chamber to spook game to take out the other coyote standing next to the other. I have a browning gold Turkey edition 23" barreled 10 guage for turkeys and I picked up an old school nib 80's beretta pintail when they were made in the same factories with the Benelli black eagles. It's the exact same inertia system with the exact same parts...not like the newer versions that they had a Walmart for the last few years of runs. I bought it for $300 in the box. I do love the Remington 7600's though. The rifles are quieter that the loud cheap rattle trap shotgun versions. Pump shot guns are fun and reliable but I don't get excited about racking the "loud" pump to impress my friends anymore I'd rather point, aim shoot, and repeat. Never have a had a jam either even when shooting 100's of trap loads in a single session. It all comes down to gun can and cleaning when done.

I've owned a few 30" 12 guage wingmasters. Nice guns, they don't jam even when dirty, they just sound like bucks slamming horns every time you cycle a shell and rattle like a pocket full of change after their broke in.

The only thing I'd use one for it keep behind my door for self defense if I ever picked up another. You can buy a lot more gun for the same money now a days.

[Greg5278]

I am not a big Fan if the 500 or 870. The 500 rattles and is loose, maybe good for Shot, but not much else.
The 870 has been declining in Quality for many Years. The 870P isn't bad if you can find a used one.

I like the Ithaca 37 style actions, and have several. The Problem with some Guns is that They don't Feed properly with loose Rounds.
The Mossberg 500, Benelli M1, and JC Higgins Model 20 don't have that Problem. Drop a loose Round in the Ejection Port and snap it closed, the Lifter will take care of the rest. I have not found any Actions to be more accurate than the Fully Threaded Ithaca style with a Floated Barrel. The older 2 3/4" Guns can be rebarreled to fully threaded easily.

Greg

[longbow]

Maybe I should change my philosophy and reconsider two guns, one for knock around bear protection and one for accuracy. I do like side by's and I'm with Cap'n Morgan in that if a guy needs more than two shots its probably one too many to be of use. Extra available shots don't hurt but the side by is simple and dependable with no feeding issues at all. As long as the firing pins hit the primers hard enough there's two shots for sure.

In all honesty I've lived in bear country since 1981 and we see lots of bears but I've never had a problem. In fact we get bears in our backyard every year and some very large black bears at that. I have seldom carried a bear gun and seldom had an encounters where I felt particularly threatened though some could have gone that way. However, most people I know that spend time in the bush quadding, berry picking, hiking/bowhunting now carry bear guns because bear sightings in general are increasing and grizzly sightings are now becoming fairly common.

For bear protection almost any reliable smoothbore with decent slugs or round balls is adequate. Personally I don't like the "persuader" style of gun with no buttstock. I'd rather have a shortish package with 18.5" to 20" barrel and buttstock. Open sights or even a bead are my preferred sights though ghost ring peep is likely as good or even better so HD guns fit the bill too.

And as megasupermagnum suggested, I have looked at turkey models too. If I discount the rifled barrel or consider a pump with smoothbore barrel for bear protection and rifled barrel for "fun" shooting that just might do me.

I was looking at a used Remington Superslug at Elwood Epps Sporting Goods in Ontario but it sold. They are across the country so this is window shopping on the internet. It looked good though and was a reasonable price. The long barrel and scope don't suit bear defense uses but it should be a decent fun gun for general shooting though pricey new. They have a used 870 Wingmaster with fully rifled barrel now. Kinda looking at that. Could get a smoothbore barrel to go with it. It will share the looseness of other pump platforms so longer range slug accuracy may not be as good as a solid single shot or bolt gun.

Hadn't thought much about the Ithaca but they are a good solid gun. Might re-look there too. New are pretty pricey but there may be some used ones around.

I like the idea of lots of available options for Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's but in reality I likely won't be doing much that way. Once set up it will stay the same other than possible smoothbore to rifled barrel change if a pump.

As usual, I'll ponder a while and ask for more opinions before laying down the cash. Since winter is coming the bears won't be an issue this year so no rush for a decision right now.

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. And don't be shy adding to the thread. I'll keep checking.

Longbow

[Bigslug]

Armorer trained on both. Own both. Have hunted with both. A serious gun guy is unlikely to break either, but I MUCH prefer to work on a Mossberg when something goes wrong, or hand a Mossberg to a novice if it's got to run right despite their clumsiness:

The staked in, "solid state" ejector and shell latches on the Remington are a royal PITA when you have to replace or re-secure. The former on a Mossy is held with a simple slot head screw, and the latter simply fall out when you remove the trigger.

Irreparably damage a mag tube on a Remington & it's a trip to the factory. On a Mossberg, you heat-gun the Loc-Tite, unscrew and replace.

Dual extractors on the 'berg. One on the Remmy.

A double feed on a Remington (either through parts wear or operator error) can make life. . .interesting due to the #&*$(ing floppy, variable-position shell carrier, which can also prevent or complicate loading directly to the chamber. On a Mossberg, the shell carrier (elevator) is locked in step with the position of the forend - an extra, double-fed round simply falls out the bottom and you press on. When chamber loading, the elevator is locked down (no way to screw it up) and when the bolt is forward, the elevator is locked up (not in your way when stuffing the magazine).

The top mounted ambi safety on the Mossberg is handier and is a lot more intuitive as to which way to push.

Both Remington and Mossberg make their cheap and their higher end:

On Remingtons, you REALLY want a Police Model (or at least an older one). The Police versions are Parkerized (current civilian matte blue will rust if you look at it wrong), have metal trigger housings (vs. plastic), have milled bar stock extractors (vs. MIM cast), beefier internal springs, and the "old style" method of retaining the magazine spring and barrel, which is a lot more modular if you want to change barrels.

With the Mossbergs, the higher end is the Military line of 590-A1. These give you metal trigger housings and safeties, and a thicker barrel wall, but those are the only real changes from the lower priced guns.

Edit to add: The only difference between a 500 and a 590 is that the 590 has an open-front magazine with a removable spring-steel mag spring retainer for easier cleaning of the tube. You can remove the mag tube and barrel to change your capabilities. Not quite as easily swapped around as a Police/older magazine 870, but my general attitude is to leave the house (or bear) gun configured and loaded for that job, and leave the field gun a field gun. Murphy says you'll have the wrong parts and ammo on the gun when you need it.

[toallmy]

If you are looking for a strictly slug gun go bolt action , for general purpose go pump with assorted barrels . It seems every time I get the slug barrel slighted in with the scope mounted on the receiver I want to change the rifled barrel out to a smooth bore . So in a perfect world you need a dedicated slug gun , but my world is far from perfect + any excuse to go shooting is a good one .

[Bigslug]

As to the bear issue. . .

I would stick with a smoothbore and either hollow-base Foster or felt-backed Brenneke - both of which are drag stabilized. I've held 8" groups at 100 yards off the bench with low-recoil Fosters with only a front bead to aim them with. Need for anything tighter than that will have you into a shotgun-only deer hunting zone with specialized sabot slugs. The smoothbore gives you "accurate enough" and the ability to quickly go to buckshot is a nice option.

[jmort]

What post #55 said.

I would add the Aluminum receiver is not a stress part.

"The secret to passing the 3000 rounds of high base buck shot reliability test is in the steel-on-steel lock-up of the full square cut Mossberg® bolt lock. Unlike other shotguns, which use an angled shoulder type bolt lock, the Mossberg® bolt lock is a completely through the barrel bolt locking system. The square cut bolt lock is captured in a square cut-out in the barrel, so at the time of firing, the strength of the steel-on steel lock-up is unsurpassed. Add the exclusive dual extractors for positive extraction and you have the answer to who makes the most durable and reliable fighting shotgun"
http://www.aimprotactical.com/aimpro...stions_faq.htm

[W.R.Buchanan]

We are definitely having a discussion and that's what this place is all about. I have learned a bunch, and as you know I have no problem expressing my own opinions.

I really liked the link to Aimpro and their motto. "Nobody argues with a .73 Caliber Rifle!"

it's a good day!

Randy

[longbow]

Well, I gotta say... convincing arguments. I've been an 870 fan for a long time but am now leaning towards the Mossberg.

Also thinking I should really go the two gun route using a knock about smoothbore for the bear protection and get a solid single shot or bolt gun for slugs and .73 cal. plinking/target shooting. My hard cast TC HB slugs or round balls in smoothbore will be plenty good for bears. Same slug or solid from rifled gun should make for a fine long range (for slugs) shooter.

Mossberg has some good deals on 500 combos. I have to look at 590 prices and options. Not sure a 590 qualifies as a knock about gun! It would bring tears to my eyes to scuff up a nice gun. A cheap 500 combo not so much and especially if I can find a 500 used. Either way I want a short barrel for ease of carrying and use in close quarters/brush if necessary.

Still thinking but thinking a little differently now!

Thanks again for all the info.

Longbow