Rifled Pump Shotgun... Advice?

[jmort]

"The Winchesters ( and Mossbergs) are aluminum receivers."
Not an issue. The receiver does not take the recoil. And Remington is sure proud of this:

"The anodized-aluminum receiver, nickel-plated barrel and internal components offer extreme corrosion resistance keeping the Versa Max functioning flawlessly and looking good through wet, sloppy hunting conditions."

The greatest Remington shotgun ever

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: My shooting partner in my class had an 18" 870 in 20 ga. The lifter screwed him many times and I am pretty sure after my constant nagging over the 2 days he was there, that he will be selling it and getting a M500.

The vast majority of guns in my class of 37 were Mossbergs. Probably 75%. Other guns in the class were Benelli's, a few Rems, and some weird Turkish guns I'd never heard of, but were only $199. The people with those guns had nothing but problems running them.

No Ithaca's this time but I saw a Police Ithaca yesterday at the gun show that was intriguing but he wanted $800 for it.

The Benelli M4's were nice guns, the AK Trooper used one of those, but there is alot of extra manipulation to run those guns and they are not cheap. He had $1800 in his! The Benelli's are definitely guns you have to practice alot with to get good with one.

Of the guns you have listed above the two Mbergs look like the best deals IMHO. I personally would go for the 590 as long as it has rifle sights. They make them with and without sights, and with handguards and not. As far as the Speed Feed stock they are a way to have extra rounds on the gun as long as they don't fall out when firing. A $15 Velcro Side saddle is a better option. You could probably sell that stock and finance your Magpul furniture. Virtually every Mberg in the class had Magpul furniture.

I just knew you could find something up there. Good Luck. I'll let you know about the other thing we talked about latter this week.

Randy

[jmort]

^^^ Yes and yes and yes

[Hogtamer]

the versa max is a relatively new autoloader, not an 870.

[longbow]

I've just e-mailed the store for more info on the 870's and Mossbergs and to get shipping cost. Leaning towards the Mossbergs.

That 590 has a bead front sight only.

There are a couple more local guys that buy and sell guns I'll check with too. I talked to one already but he has nothing I want.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I've got the smooth bore slugster. The sights are not that good. The newer ones have a ramp style that are much better, but the older dovetail ones were hard to see, and mine shoots high. I'm not sure if the front sight is replaceable or not. Something to keep in mind.

[longbow]

msm... I'm not too worried about the sights for the bear gun and if they are way off I can install something better. the sights may be silver soldered or brazed on but still replaceable. This appears to be an older version of the 500 but should still be compatible with new barrel or accessories? I am asking if yours is? I am guessing yes.

This is the gun I am leaning towards. The 590 isn't a bad deal either but just bead sight so again for bear protection use okay and I think 500 barrels fit 590's right? So a rifled barrel could be added later if I feel like it?

Being cheap and not having worked much for the last 3 weeks I really shouldn't be buying anything but I think i will anyway and the 500 Slugster is probably it. It is a good price for Canada, no scope/red dot required, should be upgradeable if I want later, should be a decent gun and reliable bear buster and the store is likely trustworthy to do business with and provide reasonable info on the gun and condition.

Do the older 500's have the plastic trigger group and safety? Not a big deal either way and replaceable should I want.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB; all the M500 have the plastic trigger group. No big deal, and there is no advantage to the steel trigger group unless you are bashing in doors and rough handling the gun regularly. It is made specifically for field combat rough usage.

I just had mine apart today cleaning it after the 700 shots since the last deep clean and I used Aerosol Brake Cleaner to clean it out and then air to blow everything clear. I used Ballistol and Vaseline for lubricants. There was no observable wear anywhere in that unit.

It did take me the better part of an hour to get all the plastic out of the barrel from the wads rubbing and transferring plastic to the barrel. I used a 12 ga brush on a cleaning rod in my Cordless drill to literally scrape the majority out. Nothing seems to dissolve the plastic so you have to get pretty serious with it. Finally got clean patches thru it. I had to run the brush thru it many times in both directions.

I completely disassembled the gun and cleaned every part separately, and the receiver had no more wear to the inside than it had last time. This gun has a little over 1000 rounds thru it now, and is running strong and smooth.

One of the things that occurred during the test was getting the gun to do 2, 3, and 4 repeat shots on multiple targets under the time limits. 1.6 seconds for 2 targets,,, 2.1 sec. for 3 targets and 2.6 sec. for 4 targets at 15 yards. I was late on the 4 targets most of the time. If the gun had been stiff I would have been late on every one. These guns respond well to being shot and a well broken in M500 is as smooth as it gets.

In Order to take the gun apart you unscrew the barrel nut and remove the barrel. Then you push out the pin that holds the Fire Control group in place. Then the Shellstops come out/fall out , the the bolt latch and then the bolt. You can then squeeze the lifter legs together and remove it. Done,,, Reassemble in reverse order. It is pretty simple.

I would recommend a metal Safety button as soon as you have an extra $15US from Brownell's as it is alot easier to disengage with one. Something that would come in handy for a Bear encounter. See Pic. You have to have the trigger group out to install that part.

My HD gun has a XS Big Dot Tritium Front Sight which glues on over the Front Bead it is one of those things you need to be sure of because once it's on ,,, it's on for good. You use JB Weld to glue it on and since the bead in the barrel is undercut you get a mechanical bond which ain't giving up any time soon. It is real easy to see in the daylight and is a big green light bulb in the dark or failing light. Pretty hard to miss either way.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, mossberg 500 barrels of any year will fit any 500 receiver, of the same gauge of course. I just wanted you to be aware of the sights, for all I know, the old slug barrels came with any number of sights, and I just got a rare one.

[longbow]

msm I'm betting from your description these are the same sights. Looks like a folding rear leaf and blade or bead front sight. Could be these shotguns were assembled one after the other!

All I have on my single shot slug gun is a folding leaf rear sight. It is for dovetail mount but I filled a barrel matching radius in it then soldered to the barrel. The front sight came off an old Mossberg .22. It is stamped steel and has a bit of a military look to it with ears and a blade. Also soldered onto the barrel. Rude and crude but very effective and strangely after I soldered the sights on and shot, the slugs went to point of aim at 50 yards... well, into a decent group anyway. I have never adjusted the sights.

I kinda figured a 500 is a 500 but wanted to be sure. I don't like unpleasant surprises!

I'm telling you Randy, you should be getting a commission from Mossberg! You have to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Mossberg shotgun promoter around! Not a criticism, you convinced me... though I will take what I can get on this purchase so it could still be an 870 but if there is a comparable Mossberg I'll buy it. This Slugster is at the top of my list right now and I am hoping Ellwood Epps has good news for me tomorrow. Darned inconvenient that they don't have someone in the store to answer my questions on a Sunday evening! If shipping isn't a killer though I think this is a done deal.

Mind you, I have to call the local guys tomorrow too. There could well be an old Mossberg 500 around that got picked up. Many people dumped their guns (as in sold them cheap) when the long gun registration was implemented in Canada because they simply didn't want the paperwork or government intervention and poking into their lives. Now of course after spending 2 billion dollars on that stupid long gun registry (yes, 2 billion!) the government canceled it! Terrific value for the taxpayers!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Yep, mines the flip rear sight. I haven't used it in a while, but I found two solutions. One was to load light loads. The other was to leave the sight flipped down, and I used the groove in the flat blade screw for the elevation adjustment as the rear sight. That put it about right on with full power factory slugs.

[Lonegun1894]

I have the same version of the Slugster, and I had to drop the blade as low as it would go (with the two s reed holding it in place), and it shoots 1” high at 50yds, and 2” low at 100 with the sights set this way and shooting Winchester full power slugs. My handloads shoot almost identically except 1/2” to 1” bigger groups at 100yds.

[longbow]

Lonegun1894:

Do you mind sharing what handload you are using that is giving 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore? If you don't want to list the powder charge that's fine, I am more curious about slug and wad column. If I could get my handloads to stay 6" or less at 100 yards I'd be pretty happy! In fact if I could count on 8" or less i'd still be happy. I'm pretty easy to please.

What got me going on slugs many years ago was eithe ran article I read or I think a comment in a Lyman manual that stated that with some work the Lyman Foster slug could be counted on to produce 4" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. I figured that was pretty acceptable so bought a Lyman Foster mould. I used load data right from the Lyman manual but never got 4" at 50 yards much less 100 yards using more than one gun and trying many of Lyman's recipes. In fact the only way I managed to get groups under 8" at 50 yards was to paper patch that grossly undersize slug up to bore diameter which helped tremendously but I still got fliers and eventually gave up completely on the Lyman Foster slug. Slugs from my home made moulds have done far better and they have also done better than I have with Lee Drive Key slugs both 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Having said that the Lee slugs are so much better than the Lyman it is night and day difference!

I've done pretty well out to 50 yards but it is that 100 yard accuracy I have been looking for and you appear to have found it!

I would actually prefer to stick with smoothbore but I also want to be able to shoot reasonably accurately for as far as the slug is effective and for bore size slugs at normal loading that would be 125 to maybe 150 yards but I'll take 4" to 6" at 100 yards as good enough.

Lately I have started thinking I should just break down and buy a rifled gun.

Please share your load for smoothbore success!

Longbow

[RMc]

"I think 500 barrels fit 590's right? So a rifled barrel could be added later if I feel like it?"

No. The 500/88 and 590 series barrels use a totally different magazine tube attachment.
The 590 uses a conventional magazine cap/barrel ring system for quick magazine tube clean out.

Also the Model 88 "Maverick" uses dual action bars as all Mossberg pump guns have since the Remington patent on "dual action bars" expired.

[longbow]

RMc:

I read something about being able to change the mag tube so that barrels are interchangeable between 500's and 590's. Not sure if that is correct.

I didn't know the Mavericks were dual action bar. I have only handled one Maverick briefly many years ago. They are considerably cheaper than the 500's so Mossberg is keeping costs down somehow. I have thought about Maverick but since they run about the same price as cheap Turkish and Chinese guns I haven't really given them serious thought. I really haven't read anything about them re reliability. Maybe I should.

Not sure if these are available in the US but in Canada we have several Turkish and Chinese guns that are very inexpensive:

- Canuck: https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com...l#.W9cM1bWZ2Uk
- ATA: https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com...l#.W9cNLbWZ2Uk
- Akkar Churchill: https://www.reliablegun.com/en/akkar...fixed-cylinder
- Dominion Arms: https://www.canadaammo.com/product/d...ction-shotgun/
- Norinco: https://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=75642

And others. Of these, from what I know which is not a lot, the only one I'd consider is Norinco. They tend to be fairly low price but supposedly decent quality and their clones like the 870 will accept Remington or aftermarket 870 parts.

I suspect several of these are made in the same factory in Turkey and just branded differently.

I should look into the Canuck brand as they are quite common now and lots of models.

While the above are all quite inexpensive I'd rather go with a well known brand name used.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

The maverick 88 is nearly identical to the mossberg 500, the two biggest difference I know of is one the safety is behind the trigger guard, and two, they are made in Mexico. I believe 500 barrels will fit on an 88. The slight price difference was never enough for me to even consider an 88.

[RMc]

The long answer:

In my experience, it appears the primary cost cutting area for the Maverick 88 is the barrel quality and finish. The observed exterior polish was minimal and often uneven. The barrel interiors exhibited visual signs of bore roughness, although the chambers seem quite smooth. I was able to polish the bores to an acceptable level.

I set up the two model 88 shotguns a few years back to use with 18.5" security contract overrun model 500 heavy contour barrels with accu-choke, (then available from Havlin Sales). The difference in barrel quality between the 88 barrels and the better finished 500 barrels was immediately evident. I have not examined any 88 barrels of recent manufacture.

Yes, any 500/88 shotgun can be set up to use 590 or or 835 barrels with the installation of a 590 or 835 magazine tube and barrel nut - provided the mag tube matches the barrel ring length. However to again use the original 500/88 barrel the original magazine tube assembly would have to be reinstalled.

Obviously, if an 835 barrel were used the 500/88 would not be suitable for use with 3.5" ammo.

Here is a video of J. Miculek using a 500/835 conversion with a 590 9 shot tube and a mag ring refitted to the proper length. (I don't think such a resoldered barrel ring would be needed with a regular length 590/835 magazine tube)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI


This opens up the possibility of fitting an 835 fully rifled barrel to a standard mag length 590. The rifled and smoothbore 835 slug barrels are not overbored. A close check of standard magazine tube length would be needed.


I believe Mossberg is marketing should consider making slug and vr field barrels available for the standard 590. I believe these would be welcomed by Mossberg fans that like the easily cleaned 590 mag tube.

Finally,

I see the biggest advantages for Mossberg pump shotguns over the Turkish and Chinese guns are market longevity and ready parts availability.

[jmort]

^^^▪ this is exactly right

[W.R.Buchanan]

My main interest in the M500/590 series guns over the Rems comes from my experience in my Shotgun Classes and seeing how both platforms compare when running and manipulating them.

The Mbergs have Dual Extractors which handle over expanded hull bases that get stuck in the chamber better than the single extractor. The technique is called "Butt Stroking." I have had to do it at least once in every class. What happens is the gun essentially locks up after firing and you can't move the forearm . To fix it,,, You hold the gun vertically with downward pressure on the forearm and bring the butt down onto your knee as it is coming up. Similar to kneeing someone in the groin! This usually breaks the stuck hull loose. The Rems typically will work this way as well however I saw many times the single extractor slipped of the rim and the rod had to be shoved down the barrel to break the offending hull loose.

The other significantly negative thing about the Rems is the lifter. It has a big bump on the ejection Port Side which blocks the Ejection Port. The way the lifter is timed as soon as the forearm is moved forward even slightly the lifter raises all the way up and blocks the Ejection Port, preventing loading of a fresh cartridge. This is a big problem on the range and an even bigger problem if you have ran the gun dry in an Emergency situation, and need to do an Emergency Reload when it counts.

When "Riding the Recoil" IE; Running the slide during Recoil it is very easy to bounce the slide off the rear and move it forward slightly when you meant to only Half Rack the gun. This is no big deal with the Mbergs as the lifter stays down until the slide is about 1/4 the way closed. With the Rems it comes all the way up immediately. If you move the slide back the lifter doesn't go back down you have to push it down manually.

The Mossberg Ejection Port is also larger and easier to find when port loading.

People might ask why I put so much attention on Port Loading. Well,,, "Every Time" you load the gun the action is typically open, and the first round goes into the Ejection Port and you close the action. This raises the lifter up under the bolt and clears the loading port so you can shove rounds into the magazine. With the action open the loading port is blocked by the lifter. Also it is MUCH FASTER to Port Load an empty gun than shoving a round into the magazine and racking the slide.

Some may ask how does this affect me hunting ducks? Well you can only have 3 shells in the gun,,, right? You miss your 3 shots and run the gun dry and more ducks are flying by.... It is much faster to Port Load single rounds than spend the time reloading the magazine and watching the ducks fly out of range.

Port Loading a Pump Action Shotgun is 50% of its operation. And learning how to index the shells in your hand is 90% of that. See Pic.

The reason why I advocate Mossberg is that they are simply easier guns to run. Once the gun is loaded, just about any gun will come to your shoulder and find a target, and shoot. However the pulling the trigger part, is only about 15-20% of your time with the gun. The rest of that time is manipulating the gun to get it ready to fire and keeping it loaded.

Shotguns are very formidable weapons. However, they have one distinct disadvantage. They are "Ammo Hungry!" Most guns have magazines that hold 5 rounds or less and about the most you'll see is 9 onboard. I can go thru 9 rounds in about 6 -8 seconds. Then what?

Well if you are being shot at,,, the prudent thing to do is Port Load a shell and fire back as you are moving to cover. You can only reload the magazine when "time and cover" permit, otherwise you are a sitting Duck. But in the meantime you must keep the gun running and returning fire,,, so you are a sitting duck that is shooting back!.

That is what Port Loading is all about.

I ran into this same quandary when I started shooting Pistols. I had a CZ40P which was a Decocker. it had many things you needed to do to run it. I failed miserably !!!! And then I got a Glock which only had 3 things you could do to it. I learned how to run that gun which allowed me to be able to run other guns,,, because I had the fundamentals well in hand by learning on a Glock.

My whole point here is that the Mossbergs are simply easier guns to learn to shoot. The quality of them is on par with any other Pump Action Shotgun out there. so the Nod would logically go to the one that is easier to master. Right?.

And Yes,,, Mossberg should be paying me! I will make that point abundantly clear to them at SHOT soon.

Randy

[Lonegun1894]

LB,
You’re going to want to choke me after this, but here goes. Just fair warning, this load only seems to shoot this well out of two shotguns I have. One is the Mossberg 835 with rifled barrel and scope, the other is a Mossberg 500 with 18.25” barrel (cut off c-lect choke barrel), and Mossbergs front post and rear ghost ring sights. My other shotguns do not do anywhere near the 4-6”@100yds with this load, with normal groups being 8-10, with the occasional 6”, but that’s a fluke.

Now I used some of whatbi do with my muzzle loading shotgun, so bear with me.

The load is Federal hull that Walmart sells in the 100 shell pack of birdshot. So the shells are once fired at this point. Give it a new primer, 25.0 grs Unique, 2 wads punched out of cereal box, 3 wads punche our of normal cardboard, then a Winchester gray plastic wad. I fill the bottom of the Lyman 525 with hot glue til it’s flat with the base, wrap it once with pillow ticking to increase the size just a bit, and then fold crimp the whole thing. The accuracy goes out the window if I try to reload this same shell again tho, so I might be punching the pressure a bit.

My most used load tho is a Winchester birdshot shell (mostly just to have a different color and ID loads easy. It gets the same 25.0grs Unique, then just 3 cereal box cards, a gray wad, and a .678” RB, with fold crimp. This load is ok out to about 50yds, giving me 2-5” groups at 50yds out of any of my shotguns.