Rifled Pump Shotgun... Advice?

[longbow]

Billy Dixon indeed! Pish posh! he was using one of those old fashion black powder guns. With a modern smokeless load in a fancy shotgun a guy could do way better. Right!?! This guy obviously is. He wouldn't stretch the truth a bit would he? Yeah, likely more like 4'.

But as BB says "...anything is possible". Just because I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Gp are you using pure (or very soft) lead for your Lee slugs? So far I've only used range scrap. Both Lee and Lyman recommend soft lead. That probably allows both slugging up to match the bore and "reforming" some to match wad petals.

Megasupermagnum you don't happen to have any of those old Buckbusters around do you? I have read about those and I believe I have a reloading article from when they first came out. I'd like to know diameter. As I said, I believe the Lee slugs have too much taper to them and would be better if they tapered at the rate of typical birdshot wad petals which is something like 0.003" over the length. If the slug tape matched that the wad petals should be compressed nice and even like which I think has to be a good thing. Then I'd be expecting 4" groups at 250 yards for sure!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I do still have about 20, I've been saving them just for the purpose of having a mold cut. They were swaged, but there is no reason you couldn't cast them. The sides have no visible taper. They have a SWC shoulder, although the nose is a lot like the LEE. Buckbusters have a "hollow point", if you can call it that; they don't expand one bit. Not in an animal, not in water, not in mud. Although I believe the buckbuster slugs were made for rifled barrels, I remember shooting them out of the smooth bore with acceptable accuracy. One interesting thing, the paper they send of load data, they say you can actually tune up or down from what's listed by looking at the recovered wads. They say to go up until the wad petals start getting sheared off, presumably by the forcing cone. I used them for a few years, I bought a bunch that went on sale after they went out of business.

[longbow]

What do the mic for diameter? That is the critical point. I've read they shot well so they much have had a good fit with some or several wads.

From what i've seen, the wad petals (fit to bore and toughness of plastic), cushion leg (does it distort against the bottom of the shotcup? Does the bottom of the shotcup distort or crack?) and gas seal all play a big part.

I've seen blown gas seals at the lip, distorted and burned gas seals because they distorted at the cushion leg, totally destroyed cushion legs, cracked shotcup bottoms, burned shotcup petals, sheared, crushed and wrinkled shotcup petals and completely sheared/torn off shotcup petals. One wad fails miserably but another with the same slug and powder charge doesn't.

Slug fit in wad/bore of course is a major player here.

Anyway, I digress... if you have some Buckbuster slugs are you able to mic the diameter at nose and base? I'd really like to know diameter and if there is a taper.

BPI makes a wad slug... or used to anyway that I think looked a lot like the Buckbuster. I haven't ordered any but if they still have them I should, if they are available in Canada. Again, not sure of diameter but they are pretty sharp people so I have to think the slug is a good fit in the recommended wad.

I know the nose and skirt diameter of Lyman sabot slugs but have not checked back to see if if matches wad petal taper. While I haven't tried the Lyman sabot slug, I have found several at the range and in every case the skirt has collapsed noticeably and has a short cylindrical "shank" after firing. Of course these are all soft lead. The same slug cast from wheelweights likely doesn't slug up near as much. That slugging up may be one reason for reported accuracy... it slugs up to fit whatever the barrel diameter is. I mean 4" groups at 250 yards is pretty good!

But yes, please mic them.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Ok I measured a slug today. I tried my best to get the filler out of the base, but that stuff is in there good. Maybe I'll try some heat if it matters. I did get all the outer dimensions pretty close, and kind of guessed on the hollow base by weight. The actual weight of this slug was 433 grains. You will notice a taper of .002", I have to wonder if that's not just a manufacturing defect, or maybe it was dropped or something. Who knows, for our purposes, the diameter is a straight .683". You might not see it in the picture, but the filler actually creates a slight concave shape, it's not perfectly flat.

[megasupermagnum]

I found a slug I had recovered from mud/clay years ago. Zero expansion at all. Notice that there is a distinct vertical line on the side, there are 4 of them. Apparently they expand and extrude into the wad petal cuts. That should lock them in for a rifled barrel. I kept digging, I had to find the data where they advised load tuning. The pink paper came in every box, but the white was an extra that was only in one or two I had. Any chance they would still allow putting that in reloading data now?

[pashiner]

Don't rule out the possibility that the magic combination that works best for you may not make any sense at all. I've been experimenting for quite some time with a scoped mossberg 535 and a variety of barrels and chokes, both rifled and smoothbore, achieving mediocre results, and often inconsistent to boot. Still fun shooting and reloading. My el-cheapo truck gun (stevens 320...a $100-$150 Chinese made beater) handily out shoots it. With an 18.5 inch cylinder bore barrel and factory plastic ghost ring sights, it holds a 3-4 inch group at 50 yds offhand with cheap foster slugs, and has never malfunctioned. It can do neat little clover leafs from a bench...but my shooting suffers after a box or two. I really didn't want it to become my favorite slug gun, but those results have been hard to match with any shotgun I've owned or borrowed. Go figure.

[longbow]

Megasupermagnum... you are the man! Thanks for that.

By all means if you have load data please scan and share or PM it or e-mail or whatever. I am an information junky and save every shred of slug reloading info I can get my hands on!

If the slugs don't expand I'm not sure how they would get wad petal marks on them but...

That and if they are hard how would they be swaged? I wonder if they might be cast to near shape then swaged to final shape? Hard to cast a slug with HP and HB! Maybe heat treated after forming?

pashiner: Yes of course you are correct. There are so many variable in shoguns that what works for one may not even be close in another but I think we start with good slug loads that fit the bore properly and well loaded and crimped hulls. That takes care of that end about as well as we can. Beyond that there is the rattle fit of many pumps, wild bore diameter variations, different forcing cones, the variety of hulls and wads, the list goes on as you well know!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure they deform, they are made of pure lead. I was just trying to show how pointless that tiny little hollow point is, it does nothing. That slug was more than likely recovered from 200 yards, any closer and it would be a mangled ball. If I were to have a mold made for it, it would be flat nosed. I'll have to take the filler out of the base and see if there is any magic in there. I also wonder if the slight concave base makes it fill out the bore better by expanding outwards. It's a good slug design though, stable all the way to target. I was shooting these the first time I tried 300 yards on a steel plate. BRI slugs don't even get to 200 yards before taking a random path. Buckbusters are stable at 300 yards.

[longbow]

Okay, I misunderstood then. Thought you were saying the slug was hard so didn't deform.

I can alter my push out mould HB pin and make a new nose form to match (without HP). In fact my Nessler Balle nose form may be pretty close as is. My TC nose form is also pretty close though TC not RNFP but likely similar length.

I'd bet the filler is simply hot melt glue. When I fill my HB slugs nose down I get the same concave base glue to glue shrinkage. Normally what I do now is to overfill then invert the slug quickly base down onto an oiled steel bar. I push down to squeeze out excess glue then leave the slug for glue to cool and harden up. That results in even flat bases that are pretty consistent. Any extra glue is very thin "flashing" and easy to remove.

I doubt there is any "magic" just a nice HB likely as you have shown.

Not sure if the concave base is intentional or just is, like mine. It may be e benefit whether intentional or not. I've had some thick skirt HB slugs I made bell at the bottom edge of the skirt from wads forcing in and swelling. These were not filled. With the Buckbuster base that would be somewhat controlled and may help swell the skirt outwards.

I'll make some mould mod's then cast some. I'll knurl up, since the mould casts exactly 0.729", then size back to my 0.733" bore diameter.

The skirt is thinner than I like but with filler likely not an issue.

Okay I looked up the BPI wad slugs and while they are wad slugs they are not the same as the Buckbuster. That and they are 0.678" diameter so smaller. And not only are AQ's back but they have a non-toxic AQ as well that looks quite nice. RNFP slug on an AQ wad.

Looks like I need a plastic injection moulding system to make wads! Good luck with that!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

How about that uncle dino? Maybe we could talk him into doing a run of buckbusters?

[Hogtamer]

mega, have you tried the plastic base 1 oz slugs he makes? They are easy to load, inexpensive and very accurate. I purposely neck shot this dinky buck to see if I could do it. 86 yds ranged after he collapsed on the spot. 2 - 3 inch groups are normal for me with this slug but at 65 I'm not the best shot in the world anymore! The slug is a couple thou. smaller than the plastic which takes the rifling so no leading.Attachment 227877

[megasupermagnum]

No, never had a need, and have too many other slug projects in the work to try them now.

[longbow]

What I plan to try are some nice bore sized slugs with the same plastic gas seal uncle D uses on the base so hybrid HB/Brenneke slug for smoothbore. BPI sells them at pretty reasonable prices.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, I am leaning heavily into the Mossberg camp at this time. Partly due to reports of Mossberg reliability and functionality but also because there are some good deals on 3 in 1 combos for both the Mossberg 500 and 535. The 500's run $661.00 Canadian and the 535's run $698.00 Canadian.

So, tell me again why I shouldn't go with the 535. I load mostly 2 3/4" hulls so that is a large jump. I wouldn't worry much in smoothbore but for rifled gun is that a bad thing?

BT commented on there not being any issue there in his opinion but I'm not sure he was shooting 2 3/4" hulls in 3 1/2" chamber. A 3" in 3 1/2" chamber isn't so bad. I don't want to be restricted to 3" and/or 3 1/2" hulls.

If there is no good reason not to get the 535 then that seems like the way to go for a few bucks extra allowing the use of 2 3/4", 3" and 3 1/2" hulls plus allowing somewhat more pressure. I'm looking at what I'd get for the money and it is hard to beat either way. Both deals come with 28" vent rib barrel with fiber optic sight, 22" vent rib barrel with adjustable fiber optic sights and 24" fully rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount. I'd rather not use a scope for general shooting but... I could live with it and if I want to shorten the barrel to say 22" or 20" it's easy going with no front sight to remount.

If there is any doubt about the 535 and jump to bore then I'd just go with the 500. It is a proven platform that I am sure will do what I want.

Are there any sight options instead of a scope? Red dot? Tube site? Options? If not then a good scope recommendation if anyone has one.

Whatever advice you have, I am listening!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

This is coming as a lifelong waterfowl hunter. The only purpose of a 3 1/2" 12 gauge is to fit more steel shot. I know I'll get some negative comments for this, but both guns are capable of the same pressure. Structurally, they are the same. Over in europe, ammo is loaded up to a max 15,229 psi (1050 BAR) for any length 12 gauge. Their guns aren't stronger, SAMMI is just overly conservative. SAMMI is voluntary too, Remington hyper sonic 3" are loaded to 1050 BAR, it's listed right on the shell. I've since given up on steel shot. No matter how much or how fast you push it, it's still a loosing battle. I've seen very little ducks this year, but the couple I shot were with 1 1/2 oz #5 bismuth in a 3" shell. It is a nice step up from steel shot, and doesn't kick like a 3 1/2" does. I've shot an unusual number of geese, all with the 10 gauge. I made shots I know I wouldn't with any 12 gauge steel shot. 1 7/8 oz of #B bismuth has me impressed. If you want more, get a 10 gauge. I tried for years with 12 gauge and failed to do what I did in a month once I got into 10 gauge. The 11.5 pound Mag 10 is the perfect gun for launching these loads. You will be flinching after a round of 3 1/2" shells in the 535.

As a turkey hunter, I've found the most range you can get from a 12 gauge will be from a load from 1 3/4 oz to 2 ounce, with lead shot. That fits with plenty of room in a 3". The only 3 1/2" guns I've spent years shooting have been an 870 super mag and a Benelli Nova. I can't run either as effectively as a Mossberg 500. The stroke on the Nova is longer than 3 1/2", it's more like 4". That makes a big difference when most of your shooting is done on a 3" pump.

I can't say anything about the slug accuracy, as the more I try and reduce that jump, the more I get the same results.

Is $661 typical of shotguns in Canada? I figured shipping added cost, but that's pretty steep. You would know a good deal. I'd go for the 500. I do know that a 500 barrel WILL fit on a 535.

[gpidaho]

Longbow: I missed it until rereading posts this evening. Yes, the Lee slugs were cast of soft lead and so were my original full bore round balls. the .735s leaded the bore. The next batch I cast (haven't shot yet) are wheel weights 4 to 1 with soft and powder coated. It wasn't that hard to clean the lead out of the smooth bore. Not nearly like when I fired the factory slugs in the rifled barrel. You see guys, I am learning a little. LOL Gp

[bikerbeans]

LB,

3 1/2" hulls for slugs just means another half inch of wad column, which isn't like to improve your accuracy.

I don't know what used pumps go for in Canada but would two used 500s be close to the same money as one new 500 or 535? One 500 with rifled barrel and one with a 28" vent rib with tubes? This me showing my bias against switch barrel guns.

BB

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I don't see any use for the 3 1/2" shells as they are going to kick you silly.

You know I've got 2 M500's so that's where I'm at . With those Federal Maximum Slugs at 1610 FPS and a TKO of 73.+ you have enough gun for anything you'd ever find in Canada.

If I was you before I bought a new one for $661 CA I believe I would scour all the gun shops and see if I couldn't find a used one for a couple hundred $. That way you'd have money left for Magpul Furniture and maybe barrel porting. Buying a new one you are just going to want to change out a bunch of stuff you just paid good money for.

I just signed up for my 4 Day Tactical Shotgun Class at Front Sight for the 22nd of this month. I will be shooting 300 #8's 165 00 Bucks and 70 Slugs,,, That's over 500 rounds in 4 days! The gun has to fit and the barrel work had to be there before I would even consider doing this.

I realize you probably won't be shooting that much in that short a time period but even so the gun fit and function has to be right or the gun will beat the snot out of you, and you won't want to play with it. If the factory furniture doesn't fit you you will want to change it out. Mine beat me silly before I changed.

The M500 is also a 3" chambered gun, so If you had delusions of shooting that stuff you'd be covered.

Mossberg sells Rifled barrels so you could add that on down the road if you wanted.

As far as sights I like the Green Fiber Optic front sight on mine alot. If you decided you wanted an Optic I see no reason to go beyond a Red Dot sight as your max range (100yds) won't test a red dot even a little. I shoot to 300 all the time with any of my Carbines, and it is easy to hit a man sized target at 300 with a red dot.

On Red Dots I favor the Bushnell TRS 25 as it is the best bang for your buck out there and can be routinely be gotten for <$90 US. I have 6 of them and they all work perfectly.

So that's my .02.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

For optics, red dots are ok, but I've gone away from them over time. For me anyway, they don't offer anything that open sights don't do for cheaper, and point more naturally. I have about 8 scopes, 6 of which are Leupold 1-4x scopes, all with the turkey plex reticle. Best hunting scope out there if you ask me. For long range slug target shooting, a 2-7x might be a better choice.

[gpidaho]

I have a Burris Droptine slug gun 2-7X35 on the NEF and Vortex Strikefire dot scopes on two other slug shooters. I like the no question warranties, If I bust them they will fix them. Gp