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Thread: Rifled Pump Shotgun... Advice?

  1. #81
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Not to sound critical but I would have expected tighter groups too with a Hastings barrel and sabot slugs.

    That is something we seem to be missing though are posted longer range targets. I hear stories and read posts of stellar long range accuracy with slugs but see few posted targets.

    I am wondering just what the accuracy level is and how repeatable. I have shot some pretty tight groups out to 100 yards with round balls from smoothbore but not repeatably by any means so meaningless if they aren't predictable and repeatable.

    I'll have to see what is available in the way of solid single shots for my "shooting" gun and possibly a Savage bolt gun. I'll also look at weight because I have no intention of being slapped silly with recoil when I want to shoot for fun or accuracy. If I can't find a used H&R USH then I have to look at options and adding weight most likely. That is one of the reasons the Remington Super Slug came into the conversation... it has a heavy barrel and it is pinned but the gun is pricey unless I can find a used one. Adding weight to a stock is doable, if it is wood anyway, not sure about synthetic. Not sure about clamp on barrel weights? They'd be easy enough to make but not sure how they might affect accuracy and whether recoil would cause sliding. A bull barrel would be much better. I don't mind weight if it helps with the recoil.

    As for the bear gun, really the opposite. It can be smoothbore, should be light and easy to carry, short enough to be handy but I don't want one of these 14" barrel things, 18 1/2" is short enough, it can be loose as long as it works every time. If I go new the Mossberg 500 is a definite contender. I'd like a reliable pump gun but a good double barrel gun is still on the list too.

    It seems most of the rifled Mossbergs have long barrels and scope mounts. Not suitable for bear guns and likely not top notch accuracy for a shooting gun. A cut down Mossberg barrel with open sights might be decent for double duty but I'd bet accuracy wouldn't compare to a Savage or good single shot.

    I'll have to check around and see who has what I can try. Its always good to try before buying.

    Longbow

  2. #82
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    Longbow: I picked up a Caldwell Lead Sled for testing with the light break barrel guns. I don't really like the feel as you shoulder this combination but it does do the job of taming the recoil. The model I have is built to hold two 25lb bar bell weights or 50lbs of shot. Good news is they aren't very expensive. If you go with the bear gun first you might give one of these a try to keep from getting slapped silly like your talking about.. Gp

  3. #83
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    There's LOTS AND LOTS of internet rumor. Put bluntly, they are full of ****. I've been at it for enough years now to know what is typical, and while I don't doubt someone out there has shot MOA groups, there is no such thing as a MOA slug gun. You will not find a shotgun that will average under 2" groups, the gun design, tolerances, and ammo are just not up to the task. Maybe a custom, but Even the Savages will not outshoot an H&R. I get the luxury of seeing a great number of slug guns this time of year. Every time I go to the range, somebody is shooting one in the fall. Once in a while you see the lucky 2" group, but rifled slug guns as a whole average about 4" at 100 yards if they have a shooter who doesn't flinch. If fastus's gun can average groups like that, that gun is more accurate than most.

    Not to get too off topic, but there is no linear dispersion with slugs. Even if you get one to shoot 2" at 100 yards, you more than likely will not shoot 4" at 200 yards. A bit of an extreme example, but the other day I was shooting my muzzleloader with with 330 grain 44 caliber bullets, and it will average 1.75" at 100 yards, some better some worse. At 200 yards, I shot two 5-shot groups. One about 6", the other about 7.5". I am pretty sure the wind was playing with me a bit, but it was not particularly bad. These 44 caliber bullets are more aerodynamic than any shotgun slug, and come out of the gun about 2150 fps. Just something to think about, people need to be more realistic on what a slug gun can actually do, and not just brag.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    ...

    I am wondering just what the accuracy level is and how repeatable. I have shot some pretty tight groups out to 100 yards with round balls from smoothbore but not repeatably by any means so meaningless if they aren't predictable and repeatable.

    ...

    Longbow
    Maybe this article will help a bit ...

    https://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...n-slug-shooter

  5. #85
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    Also, my experience with rifled slug guns is that they are usually very very ammo sensitive.

    I had an H&R Ultra Slug Hunter Deluxe in 12ga. I think I spent over $250.- on different commercial sabot slug offerings till I found one slug that shot 4" groups at 100 yards/meters. Some of those sabots did not even hit paper at that distance .... others were giving me 10 inch groups ... and Remington AccuTips finally gave me 4 inch groups out of that gun.

    My 870 with Hastings barrel is capable of 2 - 3 inch groups if I do my part .... and with Federal Power Shock sabots ... so I kept the 870 setup and sold the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter.

    I could spend more money to test other sabots out of my 870 .... but for my needs 2 -3 inch groups are good enough ....
    Last edited by faustus; 09-20-2018 at 08:38 PM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    I would have predicted a much tighter group.
    I would try the Tru-Ball penetrator.
    Jmort, Tru-Ball slugs are rifled Foster slugs designed for smooth bore shotguns. I would agree with you that they are accurate .... but out of a smooth bore shotgun ....

    Same gun ... but with a Hastings smooth bore barrel ...

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  7. #87
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    I started out with a smoothbore rifle sighted 1100, eventually upgraded to a rifled hastings barrel using the same saddle mount. Eventually I put a weaver base on the 1100 and ran the front two oversized scope base screws into the barrel extension. Rarely took the barrel off at that point. Tried every slug I could find and found out it shot the early BRI sabots very well and the plain lead winchesters a close 2nd. The early BRI sabotted slugs were hard and didn't expand. Only shot one deer with them before switching to the Winchesters slugs. When Winchester came out with their version of the BRI slug I never tried them but they were supposed to be decent. Stupidly sold the hastings barrel when I moved to an area where rifle hunting was an option. Years later we moved again to a shotgun only area I got another rifled barrel, newer (2010) remington rifled cantilever. It shot worse than the hastings barrel with a saddle mount. Tried several different slugs including Lee and couldn't find one it liked. Rounded up an older mid 80's remington cantilever barrel and it shoots about as good as the old hastings barrel I had. They don't all shoot well, and it may take some trial and error to see what yours likes.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by faustus View Post
    Jmort, Tru-Ball slugs are rifled Foster slugs designed for smooth bore shotguns. I would agree with you that they are accurate .... but out of a smooth bore shotgun ....

    Same gun ... but with a Hastings smooth bore barrel ...

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    That is crazy good accuracy. I promote the Penetrator version.
    Who needs rifling.
    Last edited by jmort; 09-20-2018 at 08:23 PM.

  9. #89
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  10. #90
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    People who want accuracy beyond 75 yards want rifling. Not center of mass, but hunting accuracy is very tough to come by in a smooth bore past 75 yards. I like Federal, they are probably my favorite ammo brand, but Brenneke invented a better slug in 1898.

  11. #91
    Boolit Grand Master

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    faustus:

    Thanks for posting that link. I think I have seen that article before but re-read and looked closely at the group sizes. Interestingly the smallest group listed is from a Remington 870 and the largest from a USH. makes one wonder...

    The article is somewhat dated at 2009 and I'd have to think there have been advancements in ammunition and guns.

    I joined the American Slug Shooting Association site several years ago but nothing seemed to be happening so I quit looking.

    Having read that, maybe I should rethink the used Remington 870 Wingmaster with scope and fully rifled barrel. Price seemed a bit high but it is in good condition and has a scope mounted. Its not so expensive it couldn't do for bear service if it didn't live up to accuracy expectations, easy to swap a smoothbore barrel onto it. If I don't move on it soon it will likely sell and it is across the country so a bit of a gamble buying without seeing. Not much choice locally though.

    If I could depend on 3" or smaller groups at 100 yards I'd be a happy camper, but... I'd like to be doing it with full bore slugs or wad slugs so almost full bore, not sabot slugs.

    Out to 50 yards I'll agree with jmort "Who needs rifling?" It is the beyond about 60 to 70 yards where things change.

    What got me going many years ago was an article I'd swear was from Lyman on accuracy with their Foster slug of 4" groups at 100 being doable. Well, I went out and bought a Lyman Foster slug mould and followed Lyman recipes exactly and couldn't keep those Fosters under 8" at 50 yards. By paper patching to bring them up to bore diameter things improved but I still got many fliers. I tried numerous Lyman recipes for that slug with pretty much the same results. Not too many years ago a member here said he had some secrets on Lyman Foster accuracy and told me that the big secret is to get them to slug up evenly by using a copper washer under the slug as a solid base so the slug would obturate evenly. I tried that too in a couple of different recipes with no better results. I gave up on the Lyman Foster.

    I have read other claims of similar accuracy (~4" at 100 yards) with Lyman Foster slugs and Lyman sabot slugs from smoothbore but... few if any posted targets. I'd say almost any slug "can" group under 4" at 100 yards... now and again but If you can't shoot repeatable 5 shot groups it doesn't really count.

    I've had some very impressive accuracy from factory Foster slugs and some Rapine full bore slugs Greg Sappington sent me, as well as with a few slugs from my home made moulds. However, my good round ball loads are about as accurate out to 50 yards, easier to cast and easier to load so... Again, it is that elusive accuracy out past 60 yards to maybe 125 yards that interests me. That being with full bore slugs.

    If I am going to have a .73 cal. rifled gun then I want rifle like accuracy though accuracy expectations would be more like 2" to 3" groups at 100 yards being achievable with careful loading and shooting.

    Longbow

  12. #92
    Boolit Grand Master

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    What megasupermagnum said "Brenneke invented a better slug in 1898"

  13. #93
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    If you have a slug gun that will consistently shoot 2" or better at a 100 yards, never sell it. If you are shooting factory ammo with your gun, buy a life time supply. I had a slug gun that would shoot this good with Remington buckhammers and they stopped making them. I couldn't find another slug that would approach the accuracy of the buckhammer.

    BB

  14. #94
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    Longbow,

    from my experience, I know that 2 to 3 inch groups are doable with commercial ammo ... though it might take a bit of luck with the particular barrel ... and it might take quite a bit of testing of different commercial sabot slugs. And those Sabot slugs are not cheap ....

    With respect to casting and reloading for a rifled slug barrel ... I don't have any real experience .....

    However, I did quite a bit of research ... In that article ... one of the slugs that is mentioned again and again is the Hastings Laser Accurate slug. The sub MOA record was shot with that slug. Unfortunately, Hastings ceased production of those sabots a while back.

    After doing some research I found that somebody is selling a mold and the wads of those Hastings Laser Accurate slugs ... but under a different name ....or that is at least my understanding.

    https://www.slugsrus.com/

    So, I ordered the mold and a supply of wads from Slugsrus ... and they ship to Canada.

    Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to test those slugs out of my rifled barrel yet. However, from my research ... I believe that those are a good candidate for 2 to 3 inch groups .....and if you are really lucky ... maybe even better groups out of your barrel.

    Hope this helps ....
    Faustus

  15. #95
    Boolit Buddy
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    Here a couple more points you might want to consider for a pump slug gun ... and especially if you are aiming for accuracy:

    1.) The sighting system: I tried ghost rings, rifle sights, a red dot ....and a scope. For 100 yards/meters and beyond I am the most accurate with a scope. I just can't shoot those groups with a red dot or rifle sight.

    2.) Removable barrel and accuracy: If the sighting system is not fixed to the barrel ..... and you remove the barrel after sighting in ....there is a chance/risk that the zero has moved when you reinstall. And this might make the difference between a 4" group and a 2" group. For that reason I went with the cantilever option. I can remove that barrel from the gun for cleaning and be confident that my point of impact has not changed.

    3.) Cheek weld: Shotguns are not really designed to be shot with a scope. But for myself I need a positive cheek weld to shoot a gun accurately. I went with a Magpul stock because it has the option to install cheek risers in different heights.

    4.) Trigger: the trigger on my 870P was sluggish and it was difficult to shoot accurately with it. I would aim ....pull the trigger a bit ....and nothing would happen ... I would aim again ....pull again a bit ... nothing happens ... untill eventually it would break and release the shot. I installed a Timney trigger and things are much better now. Not a precision trigger ... but much better.

    Voila .... just my experience....
    Last edited by faustus; 09-21-2018 at 12:08 AM.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    Reading all this here this evening got me going again. I put together ten more of the Slug R Us Hammerhead slugs. I'll try to make it out to the range tomorrow. Boy, those Hammerheads roll crimp real Purdy. Gp

  17. #97
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    That 2.5" group Faustus shot was pretty good in my estimation. The problem you run into is not so much the gun but the shape and consistency of the projectiles. But we have to keep in mind, these are shotguns and not rifles.

    We've talked about this alot here, and my biggest point is that at some point you have to decide what accuracy will fill your needs. Or what will you settle for?

    Virtually any shotgun will have enough accuracy for bear protection so we can dismiss that topic, but the functionality of that gun and how well you can run it become more of an issue. Only proper training and practice can improve your ability to actually use the gun in a situation. I have stated in detail why I think the M500 is the way to go in that respect, and I think I'm pretty close on that.

    Shooting groups at the range and Rifle Accuracy is another story. And I am starting to get interested in the concept of a real .73 Caliber Rifle.

    It appears to me that a single shot rifled shotgun would be inherently the most accurate platform to pursue. I see the barrel and the rifling being the most significant detail, and the question becomes,,, "what is the best setup for a barrel to shoot large caliber projectiles?" IE: Twist Rate, Groove Dia, Groove Depth? Is the barrel designed to shoot conventional slug ammo or would it work with full caliber boolits, or drag stabilized slugs (Russian) where the boolit would be a bore rider and the wad would pick up the Rifling?

    What exactly are the bore/groove dias on a rifled shotgun barrel? Does anyone here know?

    It seems to me that in order to get the most out of it, the ammunition would need to be as close to conventional Brass Cased Rifle Ammo as possible. Point being, that all the components comprising the round would be held together in the most consistent manner possible. Kind of like a Strait Walled Rifle Case like a .45-70 etc.

    Once we've got our round's mechanical configuration figured out then all that is left is working up the load.

    There is no reason that I can think of why a .73 Caliber Rifle shouldn't shoot as well as any other Cast Boolit Rifle, and all of the things that apply to any Cast Boolit Rifle would apply here as well.

    It just occurred to me that my .45-70 produced a 3 shot 1.75" group once, and that's the best it's done, so what would I expect out of a larger caliber version?

    I'd for sure be Powder Coating my Boolits some pretty color (to be determined).

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  18. #98
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    Randy: I assume that you've read through the thread !2ga FH slug tests. 73cal rifle is pretty much what that's all about. Gp

  19. #99
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    The 590 has a plastic trigger assembly and a plastic safety. The 590A1 has an aluminum trigger assembly and metal safety. I think that the safety button is steel. Another way that the 590A1 differs from the 590 is that it has a very thick barrel. The 590A1's specs come from the Navy. The barrel is noticeably heavy. I own a 500, 590, and 590A1. The Mossberg 835 Barrel(3.5 inch chamber and vent rib)will fit the 590A1 with the 18 inch barrel but not the other barrel length. My 835 barrel is 24 inches and very handy. It's lighter than the thick wall 590A1 barrel.

    In total I own 5 Mossbergs. All have many tool marks in chamber and barrel. For the 590A1 to extract reliably, polishing chamber with 0000 steel wool was necessary.

  20. #100
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    i got a legit 3" group with Lyman 525s with MY loads from MY gun at 100 yds from bench the last time I shot targets. As most everyone know there is a good deal of variance in shotgun barrels and fit is everything - it takes a good deal of fiddling with various wads and charges. I mentioned the legit 3" group because I have come to accept "relative" accuracy as a better standard and one I can live with in the field: 3" from center of target dot at 100 yds. One may be 3" right, the next 3" left, the next may hit the dot and so on. Considering the size and energy of our big slugs and the target spot on the average hog or deer it's a dead animal either way. Oh, and the above is from a rifled 870, scoped. The USH is not magic in itself and as we have discovered there is easily a .003 variance from gun to gun. I learned from professional pressure testing that our roll crimps can vary a lot in consistency even though they may be perfect to the eye. Powder, primer, hull and components all the same and slug loads weighed on electronic scale. Ever noticed how some hulls of the same batch slugs all the same, most hulls the slug is a tight fit and and a couple slip right in? Weigh some hulls and see how much variance. So we are dealing with less than perfect components loaded with less than precision loaders we are gonna get less than cloverleafs at distance. As close as it gets has been Uncle Dino's plastic base slugs of 1 oz. in 12 ga. and 3/4 oz in 20 ga. I'm confident in your ability LB to find the best loads for YOUR gun, whatever you buy with a rifled barrel. I agree with whoever said "who needs rifled at 50 yds in?" It sure is fun to have both!

    Post Script: notice this was the 100th post in this thread. Kent, if you could monetize the free advice you could buy a new gun tomorrow!
    Last edited by Hogtamer; 09-21-2018 at 07:41 PM. Reason: PS
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