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Thread: Marlin 1895 Squib, What the ??? (long)

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Marlin 1895 Squib, What the ??? (long)

    Me and my boy shot the cowboy shoot match here this morning.

    Lots of fun till I got a bullet stuck in the barrel, about 6 inches into the bore.
    Rifles a marlin 1895cb in 45-70. Loads a lyman 457191 sized to .458, SPG lube, 28grns imr-4198, Winchester LR primers in starline brass. Works good as long as I do my part.

    Loaded five rounds into the mag tube, third round pull trigger and just a click! Like a dead primer click, pulled the hammer and click again. Worked the lever to dump the round and out came the case with a bunch of powder following it out and down into the action but no boolit! What a sec here wheres the boolit? It was crimped good. Came off the line. We dropped a cleaning rod down the bore and punched it right out, about 6 inches forward of the chamber. Had to dismantle the action and mag tube, get the remaining rounds out and get the powder out of the action. IMR-4198 WILL jam a 1895 solid. Inspected bore and no damage. Got it back together and finished the match placing 3rd in my class.

    At home tore the marlin down, cleaned a lot more powder out of it. Cleaned the bore still looks like new, whew!

    Inspection of the boolit and the base looks like there may have been a partial ignition, the case shows signs of burnt powder residue, unless it was just the residue from the primer going off???
    Just trying to figure out what caused this? The powder is maybe a year old always kept in a climate controlled setting and smells fresh, Cases were tumbled dry, so no moisture there? The primers are probably 10+ years old, same batch of 1000, same controlled environment, We've used 200+ to load my boys 45 colt and he has had no miss fires as of yet or detonation problems. Course we are using both trail boss and unique in his loads.

    So I am wondering, 28grns of 4198 in a 45-70 case maybe fills it just a bit over a quarter of the case, maybe 1/3? Could it be the powder was not exactly bunched up by the primer to get ignition of the powder? Maybe it was just the primers??
    It was a 40 round match so shot a total of 60 rounds today, one stuck boolit and one round I had to strike twice to get it to fire.

    My test batch for this load I used some 40+ year old Federal LR primers and they worked fine, had 20 left so I used them for testing and had zero problems. Normally use my old stash of those federal primers or cci for reloads.

    Just wondering what the thoughts might be on this. This is the first batch of winchester primers I have ever used in my 35+ years of reloading and this is my first time ever getting a boolit stuck in a bore, so it kind of rattled me!

  2. #2
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    You say you're using the same batch of primers for .45-70 and for .45 Colt. The .45-70 takes rifle primers and the .45 Colt takes pistol primers. While they are the same diameter, there is a difference in the height of the two types.

    Are you using rifle primers in the handgun cases, or pistol primers in the rifle cases?

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    For a trapdoor 45-70 with a 300g cast, hodgdon shows a start load of over 33 grains of i4198. Pressure is listed at 15.5k cup. My guess is you have a very low pressure load coupled with weak older primers. I tried low pressure loads with h4198 in the 45-70 and had bad accuracy because of inconsistent combustion.

    BB

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy4477 View Post
    Me and my boy shot the cowboy shoot match here this morning.

    Lots of fun till I got a bullet stuck in the barrel, about 6 inches into the bore.
    Rifles a marlin 1895cb in 45-70. Loads a lyman 457191 sized to .458, SPG lube, 28grns imr-4198, Winchester LR primers in starline brass. Works good as long as I do my part.

    Loaded five rounds into the mag tube, third round pull trigger and just a click! Like a dead primer click, pulled the hammer and click again. Worked the lever to dump the round and out came the case with a bunch of powder following it out and down into the action but no boolit! What a sec here wheres the boolit? It was crimped good. Came off the line. We dropped a cleaning rod down the bore and punched it right out, about 6 inches forward of the chamber. Had to dismantle the action and mag tube, get the remaining rounds out and get the powder out of the action. IMR-4198 WILL jam a 1895 solid. Inspected bore and no damage. Got it back together and finished the match placing 3rd in my class.

    At home tore the marlin down, cleaned a lot more powder out of it. Cleaned the bore still looks like new, whew!

    Inspection of the boolit and the base looks like there may have been a partial ignition, the case shows signs of burnt powder residue, unless it was just the residue from the primer going off???
    Just trying to figure out what caused this? The powder is maybe a year old always kept in a climate controlled setting and smells fresh, Cases were tumbled dry, so no moisture there? The primers are probably 10+ years old, same batch of 1000, same controlled environment, We've used 200+ to load my boys 45 colt and he has had no miss fires as of yet or detonation problems. Course we are using both trail boss and unique in his loads.

    So I am wondering, 28grns of 4198 in a 45-70 case maybe fills it just a bit over a quarter of the case, maybe 1/3? Could it be the powder was not exactly bunched up by the primer to get ignition of the powder? Maybe it was just the primers??
    It was a 40 round match so shot a total of 60 rounds today, one stuck boolit and one round I had to strike twice to get it to fire.

    My test batch for this load I used some 40+ year old Federal LR primers and they worked fine, had 20 left so I used them for testing and had zero problems. Normally use my old stash of those federal primers or cci for reloads.

    Just wondering what the thoughts might be on this. This is the first batch of winchester primers I have ever used in my 35+ years of reloading and this is my first time ever getting a boolit stuck in a bore, so it kind of rattled me!
    Are your winchester primers brass colour or silver -- we used Winchester primers for forty years - they were always silver colour and they always worked - got a batch some years back that were brass colour and we had lots of trouble - double strikes to light em - some never fires - had more trouble with that lot than in all my previous life - we put about three hundred of em in our bonfire pit and will NEVER buy another Winchester primer !!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Are your winchester primers brass colour or silver -- we used Winchester primers for forty years - they were always silver colour and they always worked - got a batch some years back that were brass colour and we had lots of trouble - double strikes to light em - some never fires - had more trouble with that lot than in all my previous life - we put about three hundred of em in our bonfire pit and will NEVER buy another Winchester primer !!
    That explains a lot.

    I have recently been getting the occasional no fire/light primer strike in my 30-30. All Winchester primers too.


    Steve in N CA

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    You say you're using the same batch of primers for .45-70 and for .45 Colt. The .45-70 takes rifle primers and the .45 Colt takes pistol primers. While they are the same diameter, there is a difference in the height of the two types.

    Are you using rifle primers in the handgun cases, or pistol primers in the rifle cases?

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    Rifle in both, primers are sitting flush in the 45 colt.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Are your winchester primers brass colour or silver -- we used Winchester primers for forty years - they were always silver colour and they always worked - got a batch some years back that were brass colour and we had lots of trouble - double strikes to light em - some never fires - had more trouble with that lot than in all my previous life - we put about three hundred of em in our bonfire pit and will NEVER buy another Winchester primer !!
    Silver.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    For a trapdoor 45-70 with a 300g cast, hodgdon shows a start load of over 33 grains of i4198. Pressure is listed at 15.5k cup. My guess is you have a very low pressure load coupled with weak older primers. I tried low pressure loads with h4198 in the 45-70 and had bad accuracy because of inconsistent combustion.

    BB
    Went with this load to tame the recoil, have not had any accuracy problems that I can account for other than the rear buckhorn sight fighting my eyes.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy4477 View Post
    Silver.
    cross that one off the list then!! .........I heard a rumor that they (Winchester/olin/whatstherename) outsourced their primers from someplace for a bit - proly five to eight years ago we had our problem - switched to Federal - aint goin back!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Is the powder loose? I use a thin piece of florist foam to hold the powder in position.

    Do you raise the barrel each time to position the powder at the rear of the case? Could be powder position.

  11. #11
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    Ive had a couple of squibs,put it down to getting bullet lube in the case....the second one definitely was,there was melted wax in the base of the case......Wax seems to kill powder just like oil does.........Anyway,if the primer pushes a bullet into the bore,it certainly isnt weak.

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    I agree, if the bullet was partially down the bore the primer had plenty of energy to ignite the powder. I bet the powder was contaminated by lube. SPG is pretty soft to begin with and if it gets too hot it can migrate. I’ve shot tens of thousands of Winchester primers, both brass and plated, and still do without any problems.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I had this exact same experience in my .45-70 Marlin 25 years ago with the RCBS 320 gr. gas check bullet and 4198 loaded to around 1800 fps. I had to quit the powder and go to SR 4759 and that fixed it. The 4198 just wouldn't ignite properly for some reason.
    Rule 303

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Unique works wonders in 45-70 if the velocity will work for you. I had lousy performance with 4198 and dryer lint in 577 Snyder. Switched back to pyrodex in the snider and all is well.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check