.44/.45’s: Hunting At The Lower End

[rodwha]

Aah, those aren't autoloaders LOL - Fun though! Is some sort of Minie ball possible for those?

I suppose a hollow based bullet would work, but it isn’t necessary as it can’t be an undersized projectile, which is what a Minie Ball is. The chambers are 0.453” with grooves of 0.452”.

[rodwha]

Were the initial Old Army’s a true .44 cal or were they measuring the lands as they used to be? My Remington pictured also has grooves of 0.452” but was/is measured by the lands (mine is 0.442”).

It’s crazy the prices on some of these used pistols. I traded my father a Taurus pistol for mine. Much more reasonable for sure!

My Pietta Remington is fairly accurate and a steal at the prices from Cabelas during Christmas ($200), though I had to work it over a bit. I’m happy with it and am getting standard pressure .45 ACP performance with bullets.

[Harter66]

I did load some 45-200 SWC in an 1858 brasser with 20 gr of 777 it hit to sights and wasn't anything to fear . That example is .448 and .426x.440 . In spite of that it shoots well enough for 8" plates at 50 yd with RB and no pains in sprue placement .
The next meal on the plate however is exactly what you're doing . I have a 429421 that was altered to .448 . I have a Dragoon and I think it'll all fit with about 40 gr of FFg making it kind of a hand cannon and certainly everything an ROA would deliver .
I'm also using a screened BP vs factory stuff so the top end is somewhat lower . 25 gr of T7 in the brasser with a 141 RB gave me right at 1000 fps and the screened poured level to the cylinder mouth and compressed with the ball below flush gave me just over 900 fps . If the Dragoon will run the (now) 448421 as fast as I expect it will I'd have no qualms about any food animal up to 400# or so inside 60 yd .

The Picket conical when used in a Walker was intended to penetrate a horse , tack , and kill the rider behind it .
That was also it's intent in the Dragoon . It just wouldn't do it in the 58s and 60s . Fast forward 170 yr and we're still trying to do it ...... The Picket or virtually any 195-220 gr ball should do in any deer inside 50 yd with little concern beyond getting the ball in the right place . That has to be done of course with any choice . For whatever it's worth I've killed 5 hogs from 120-165# with a 900 fps 454424@250 gr at 900 fps with up to 36" of penetration and no recovered bullet from powder burn to 50 yd .
For whatever it's worth the 45-200 RCBS SWC I had dropped 205 in 1-20 and needed to be sized to get it chambered in the 58 .

[rodwha]

I did load some 45-200 SWC in an 1858 brasser with 20 gr of 777 it hit to sights and wasn't anything to fear . That example is .448 and .426x.440 . In spite of that it shoots well enough for 8" plates at 50 yd with RB and no pains in sprue placement .
The next meal on the plate however is exactly what you're doing . I have a 429421 that was altered to .448 . I have a Dragoon and I think it'll all fit with about 40 gr of FFg making it kind of a hand cannon and certainly everything an ROA would deliver .
I'm also using a screened BP vs factory stuff so the top end is somewhat lower . 25 gr of T7 in the brasser with a 141 RB gave me right at 1000 fps and the screened poured level to the cylinder mouth and compressed with the ball below flush gave me just over 900 fps . If the Dragoon will run the (now) 448421 as fast as I expect it will I'd have no qualms about any food animal up to 400# or so inside 60 yd .

The Picket conical when used in a Walker was intended to penetrate a horse , tack , and kill the rider behind it .
That was also it's intent in the Dragoon . It just wouldn't do it in the 58s and 60s . Fast forward 170 yr and we're still trying to do it ...... The Picket or virtually any 195-220 gr ball should do in any deer inside 50 yd with little concern beyond getting the ball in the right place . That has to be done of course with any choice . For whatever it's worth I've killed 5 hogs from 120-165# with a 900 fps 454424@250 gr at 900 fps with up to 36" of penetration and no recovered bullet from powder burn to 50 yd .
For whatever it's worth the 45-200 RCBS SWC I had dropped 205 in 1-20 and needed to be sized to get it chambered in the 58 .

I’m not so sure 20 grns of T7 pushing a 200 grn SWC wouldn’t be something to fear. I’d be surprised if you weren’t getting .44 Spl performance from that load. Not a monster load but certainly something to fear.

Is .448 the chambers and .426 x .440 the bore dimensions? If so I can’t say I’ve seen a bore so small, especially with chambers that far over bore.

What are the dimensions of your Dragoon?

[rodwha]

Another thing I haven’t found anyone who can say/has done so is whether or not boring chambers deeper effects the accurate charge.

I use an adjustable rifle measure that graduated by 10 grns. I’ve merely eyeballed 5 grn increments and have done no other trials of charges. I have recently scratched in marks for 5 grn increments feeling I can easily eyeball 2.5 grn increments and will further test my pistols. So far my Remington NMA prefers the 30 grn setting (weighs ~33 grns with 3F Olde Eynsford) and my Ruger prefers the 35 grn setting (weighs ~38 grns of OE). These preferred charges stay the same whether it’s a 144 grn ball or any of the various bullets I’ve tried.

My question has been whether or not boring chambers deeper would change this or not. I’m happy enough with the performance levels each give but would like to increase bullet length to where both guns load to a similar depth with their powder charges. Anyone happen to have done so and can attest to what they noticed?

[Harter66]

I’m not so sure 20 grns of T7 pushing a 200 grn SWC wouldn’t be something to fear. I’d be surprised if you weren’t getting .44 Spl performance from that load. Not a monster load but certainly something to fear.

Is .448 the chambers and .426 x .440 the bore dimensions? If so I can’t say I’ve seen a bore so small, especially with chambers that far over bore.

What are the dimensions of your Dragoon?

I only checked the Dragoon cylinders and those are .448 . Scandless to have had it almost 2 yr without shooting it . It'll get a work out here in a couple weeks though ...... until I run out FFg and ownself anyway .

As for the Remmy I didn't have any of the typical pressure markers and that was a 2 cylinder load test really just to see if it would fit . I should elaborate that I use VOLUME not scale grains . I can just clear and run 25 VOLUME gr of FFg Goex with RB .
Always approach with caution www data etc it was in mine but might let go in yours .......
I would tend to not get to excited about even Schofield load levels .
Yes the Remmy is extremely tight bored and the chambers are that big to fix the mismatched chambers and the cylinder face that looked like it was used to drive a fence post . It's all happy now and never saw a steady diet of the big stuff .

[rodwha]

My understanding is standard .45 ACP loads (original 230 grn running around 350 ft/lbs) are equivalent to the old 28-30 grn Schofield loads. That’s certainly something to fear. But even the old 300 ft/lbs .44 Spl stuff was potent enough and effective on people. Of course people behave differently than animals. Animals don’t have a psychological aspect and won’t just give up like some people.

[Harter66]

I by fearing I meant on the operator end not the business end . The 90 gr RB in the 36 cal over 15-20 is pretty intimidating .

[rodwha]

[Bigslug]

My understanding is standard .45 ACP loads (original 230 grn running around 350 ft/lbs) are equivalent to the old 28-30 grn Schofield loads. That’s certainly something to fear. But even the old 300 ft/lbs .44 Spl stuff was potent enough and effective on people. Of course people behave differently than animals. Animals don’t have a psychological aspect and won’t just give up like some people.

All the "will" in the world won't carry very far with a 3/8th's + inch hole through it's aorta. One of the more interesting findings from the late '80's-early '90's FBI research was that hydrostatic effects don't significantly come into play until the impact speed reaches/exceeds 2000 fps. At that level, displacement of tissue becomes rapid enough to cause tearing beyond that tissue's ability to stretch. Below that, you're pretty much just shoving meat out of the way and the wound channel isn't significantly wider than the bullet itself. It's also worth considering that wound DEPTH can serve to create more damaged surfaces (wound VOLUME) to cause bleed-out than wide and shallow. It really comes down to shooting to make a drain that empties the bathtub ASAP.

[DougGuy]

I did have one guy want his ROA cylinder reamed to take a .453" boolit, and I converted (butchered) 3 reamers to use for this. Percussion cylinders are very difficult to fit tooling into, and once modded, the tooling is worthless for anything else besides another percussion cylinder of the same caliber. He seemed happy with it but I never heard a range report from him. Pics are on the Cylinderhone FB page if you scroll you can prolly find them.

[OFFSHORE]

All the "will" in the world won't carry very far with a 3/8th's + inch hole through it's aorta. One of the more interesting findings from the late '80's-early '90's FBI research was that hydrostatic effects don't significantly come into play until the impact speed reaches/exceeds 2000 fps. At that level, displacement of tissue becomes rapid enough to cause tearing beyond that tissue's ability to stretch. Below that, you're pretty much just shoving meat out of the way and the wound channel isn't significantly wider than the bullet itself. It's also worth considering that wound DEPTH can serve to create more damaged surfaces (wound VOLUME) to cause bleed-out than wide and shallow. It really comes down to shooting to make a drain that empties the bathtub ASAP.

+1 with Bigslug's post. Deep and wide. . .Grande Canyon Boolits! LOL

[pls1911]

Any .44 or .45 at nominal loads (700 fps+) will slap hog or deer silly at appropriate ranges (less than 50 yards) with proper bullet placement.
I've gravitated to a .45 colt with RCBS 270-SAA Semi wadcutters at around 800 fps . Heavy bullets make big holes without needing a lot of speed, and the slap factor of flat nosed bullets is incredibly effective and a very satisfying sound. Standard weight 250 grain SWC slugs work about as well.