Powder charge difference between plated and lead

[scottyp99]

If I have a handload in 38 Special using a lead boolit, say 4 grains of HP-38 with a 158 grain SWC, how much more HP-38 will I need to get a plated bullet at the same velocity, all else being equal?

Scotty

[JimB..]

Roughly speaking, none.

[Kraschenbirn]

If I have a handload in 38 Special using a lead boolit, say 4 grains of HP-38 with a 158 grain SWC, how much more HP-38 will I need to get a plated bullet at the same velocity, all else being equal?

Scotty

"Plated"? As in electroplated (copper) or powder-coated? I've loaded 'hard-cast' and 'plated' boolits interchangeably in my .45 ACPs for years without noticing any significant change in performance. On the other hand, my chronograph indicates a 5%-8% increase in velocity for PC'd over 'naked' boolits.

Bill

[Dragonheart]

Since you didn't specify the firearm, I agree, I wouldn't add any more powder.
According to the 25th. Edition of the Hodgdon Data Manual for a 38 Special the Max load for HP-38 is 3.7 grains for a lead or jacketed 158-160 grain bullet. At 3.7 grains the published velocity is 835fps for lead and 819 fps for jacketed out of a 7" barrel. So difference in velocity is pretty much moot.

If you have a quality steel frame revolver the published +P load is 5.2 grains of Hp-38 for the same weight bullet and 948fps.

[scottyp99]

Since you didn't specify the firearm, I agree, I wouldn't add any more powder.
According to the 25th. Edition of the Hodgdon Data Manual for a 38 Special the Max load for HP-38 is 3.7 grains for a lead or jacketed 158-160 grain bullet. At 3.7 grains the published velocity is 835fps for lead and 819 fps for jacketed out of a 7" barrel. So difference in velocity is pretty much moot.

If you have a quality steel frame revolver the published +P load is 5.2 grains of Hp-38 for the same weight bullet and 948fps.

The latest load data from Hodgdon does not agree with that at all.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data...er%5B%5D=HP-38

Scotty

[JoeJames]

My take on polymer vs lubed cast bullets - 38 Special - Model 15-3- 158 grain SWC's - 4.1 grains Win 231 - CCI 500 sp primers:
Polymer coated - 800, 798, 846, 895, 782 fps avg = 824
cast lubed - 840, 877, 836, avg = 851 admittedly not a big sample; so they may be closer than it appears.

[Dragonheart]

The latest load data from Hodgdon does not agree with that at all.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data...er%5B%5D=HP-38

Scotty

I stated my source, a Hodgdon Manual. It's your nail, drive it as you wish.

[JoeJames]

I stated my source, a Hodgdon Manual. It's your nail, drive it as you wish.

I just looked at the Hodgdon data. That's a very good example of why I chronograph my loads.

[fredj338]

I find no real change going lubed lead or PC or HT.

[scottyp99]

Jacketed bullets typically require a bit more powder to match the velocity of a lead boolit, so I figured the copper plating on a plated bullet would slow it down compared to a lead boolit, too. Still not a whole lot of actual load data on plated bullets, unfortunately. I guess I'll have to do some testing of my own. Thanks anyway, guys,

Scotty

[JimB..]

Jacketed bullets typically require a bit more powder to match the velocity of a lead boolit, so I figured the copper plating on a plated bullet would slow it down compared to a lead boolit, too. Still not a whole lot of actual load data on plated bullets, unfortunately. I guess I'll have to do some testing of my own. Thanks anyway, guys,

Scotty

Have fun with the testing, what you will find is that the difference between plated and lead is small enough to ignore for most purposes. You’ll also find that there are differences based on the caliber and brand of bullets, much as there will be small differences based on composition, sizing and lube on lead bullets. You’re kinda taking a BR shooting approach to loading a revolver bullet, only you know if this is appropriate for your shooting.

[scottyp99]

I have a feeling (and bear in mind that it's just a feeling, could be completely wrong) that the less velocity and pressure you subject a plated bullet to, the more it acts like a jacketed bullet, and the harder you push it, the more it acts like a lead boolit. That's my hypothesis, any ideas on how best to conduct a controlled experiment to prove/disprove this?

Scotty

[JimB..]

I have a feeling (and bear in mind that it's just a feeling, could be completely wrong) that the less velocity and pressure you subject a plated bullet to, the more it acts like a jacketed bullet, and the harder you push it, the more it acts like a lead boolit. That's my hypothesis, any ideas on how best to conduct a controlled experiment to prove/disprove this?

Scotty

Maybe start by defining “acts like”

[scottyp99]

Maybe start by defining “acts like”

Performs in a similar manner

Scotty

[JimB..]

Performs in a similar manner

Scotty

Trying to understand. Are you saying that your feeling is that as you reduce the powder charge under 158gr bullets with identical profiles there will be a point where a jacketed bullet and a plated bullet achieve the same velocity given the same charge, and as you increase the powder charge there will be a point where a plated bullet and a lead bullet achieve the same velocity from the same charge?

If I understand you correctly, then the testing should be pretty straightforward assuming that you have a chronograph and nearly identical bullets that are plated, jacketed, and lead.

[scottyp99]

No, nothing that specific. Just that a plated bullet at low pressure and velocity should exhibit qualities a little closer to a jacketed bullet than it does at high pressure and velocity. After all, a plated bullet IS a jacketed bullet...it just has a very thin, weak jacket. For instance, a plated bullet may not obdurate as easily as a lead boolit, and the copper coating may experience quite a bit more friction as it leaves the casing and travels down the bore. As the powder charge is increased, perhaps there's a point where we see obduration, or the additional pressure may overpower the thin jacket to the point where we see the plating being stripped from the lead core, exposing the lead beneath. I am no ballistics expert, by any means, so much of this is pure speculation on my part, but it sure would be nice if we had some better idea how plated bullets work than, "Don't go over 1,200 FPS, other than that, you're on your own." I've had pretty good luck with plated bullets in 38 special, 45 ACP, and light to medium 357 Magnum loads, by staying away from very light loads, but not going to hot either, I just wish I understood plated bullets better. I have been trying to do some research on the internet, but nobody else seems to know much about them, either, including the people who make them.

Scotty

[JimB..]

FWIW, common wisdom is that plated will act like lead until you get to a velocity where the plating separates from the core.

My experience is that this is generally true, but that plated bullets are not as accurate as cast or swaged lead bullets.

Good luck with your testing, I look forward to your results,
Jim

[Grmps]

There is a difference between jacketed and plated, with jacketed the copper is thicker.
jacketed bullets require more powder to achieve the same results as lead; lubed/PC's/HiTeked
I would assume plated would run somewhere in between depending on the thickness of the plating

[scottyp99]

FWIW, common wisdom is that plated will act like lead until you get to a velocity where the plating separates from the core.

My experience is that this is generally true, but that plated bullets are not as accurate as cast or swaged lead bullets.

Good luck with your testing, I look forward to your results,
Jim

That's the thing, JimB, "common wisdom". All we have are old wive's tales about how plated bullets behave, and a lot of it is contradictory, and some of it is just plain demonstrably wrong. I wish we had something a little more scientific, and I really don't have the time, resources, or expertise required to produce that information. Plated bullets are great for a certain type of shooting, I use them in IDPA competition, where their qualities excel. Pinpoint accuracy is not required, and the gun stays much cleaner over a course of fire that is usually in excess of 100 rounds for the day, which is great for reliability. And they're cheap, almost as cheap as store-bought lead boolits.

I just joined a local rod & gun club, so I'll be able to shoot more now, and I'll try to come up with some course of fire that will tell us all something about how plated bullets behave over their range of usefulness. Might take a while, though, so don't hold your breath!

Scotty

Scotty

[Dragonheart]

FWIW, common wisdom is that plated will act like lead until you get to a velocity where the plating separates from the core.

My experience is that this is generally true, but that plated bullets are not as accurate as cast or swaged lead bullets.

Good luck with your testing, I look forward to your results,
Jim

I personally had very good results with plated bullets. For example this is my IDPA load: Ransom Rest 25 yards, 5 rounds 100 grain Berry bullet at 1400fps , 9mm 1911 S&W, exceeds the 125K required IDPA power factor. I also have powder coated loads that comes close to the same accuracy,