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Thread: Garand purchase query

  1. #1
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    Garand purchase query

    A friend invited me to accompany him to a location in Vermont -- about a 3 1/2hr drive -- where a bunch of CMP Garand rifles will be purveyed. Not at all savvy as to what I should buy -- or, better, stay away from -- I'm hoping one or more of you really knowledgeable persons might provide me some guidance, or, a buying tip or two? The sale date is 22 September... so there is a bit of time for research. I indicated to him I'd love a Beretta, or a "corn chopper" model (IHC) -- but, he indicated last year there were none of these offered. Most all were Springfields in "all sorts of condition", with a very few "beat-up" H&R's. Hence, my inquiry.... I've been yearning to purchase an M1 Garand for quite some time.
    Thank you in advance!
    geo

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    George -- there's an awful lot to cover for a good and thorough answer to our question(s). I'm thinking that you want one that is in good condition. So, aside from the overall external appearance you must consider the mechanical condition. That would include the wear measurements of the muzzle and throat of the chamber for which a gauge is usually used make a determination. 1 is almost brand new, 3 is starting to show serious use. A partial expedient, lacking the gauges for these measurements is to smuggle in a .30-06 round in your pocket and see if the bullet will enter the muzzle. The farther in it will go the more the barrel has been shot, and if it will enter the muzzle you can pretty well figure that the barrel will need to be replaced. I have never attended a CMP event, but it's my understanding that these measurements are usually stated to be within or without spec. Of course you have to look down the bore for visible frosting, pitting, apparent wear of the lands, inspect the muzzle's crown for nicks. Take along a bore light. Pull the bolt handle rearward as far as it will go and make sure that the bolt stays to the rear. Then, carefully avoiding having your thumb smashed, you have to push the follower/lifter downward to release the bolt and let it slam forward. At that point, look carefully to assure that the bolt locked closed. Two things that you are unable to check without field stripping the rifle is the amount of wear to the gas cylinder and gas piston tip. If the first is too worn too small, or the second too large, the rifle won't function properly, and replacement parts are becoming scarce and expensive. Then, there is the obvious -- is the stock cracked? Is the adjustable rear sight functional, both windage and elevation? If the general appearance is o.k. and the mechanics seem good I wouldn't necessarily reject one for the stock, as that is probably the easiest part to replace. Same for the handguards. I own nine M1s, two purchased from the CMP's predecessor DCM, a couple that were imported from S. Korea as "Blue Sky" rifles, and five that I either re-barreled or built from only a receiver. This is getting harder to do with the parts beginning to dry up, but can still be done if you have deep pockets. My last project was a 5 million series serial number H&R from a receiver. I do not own an IH or Winchester. These bring premium prices on the internet auctions. Not knowing how much you are willing to spend, I will include the information just FYI that a place named Northwest Armory has some M1 auctions pending on www.gunauction.com that have not as yet started, but the photos are posted at that site. All makers are represented, apparently it is a very nice collection being liquidated, and all rifles seem in Excellent + condition. Good luck with your search and purchase. The M1 is certainly one of the finest rifles ever made.

  3. #3
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    George,

    You unfortunately aren't going to get all the answers on Garands until you pony up, buy the books, and otherwise dig deep to do the research. It had a 20 year production run from four manufacturers, and saw a lot of upgrades; pretty much all the parts are interchangeable across the whole entire run; and the harsh use of the guns that saw service in WWII and Korea with corrosive pre-1953 ammo pretty much guarantees you will be looking at mixmaster rebuilds or hammered puppy poo on the earlier guns. Parts other than the receiver aren't serialized, so you have to consult the books to really know what truly "belongs" on a receiver based on it's production date.

    Late-number Springfields, IHC's, or H&R's are more likely to have more original parts, be in spec, and are arguably better rifles due to more of the bugs being worked out by the time they were made, though aren't necessary as "cool" because they didn't see the events that made the M1 famous.

    Winchester - more collectible, but they had more production trouble. As WWII receivers, they're gonna either be Frankenguns or REALLY expensive. I'd only approach them cautiously as shooters.

    For spot-checks on a shooter, I'd check the overall bore and crown as outlined on Post #2. I would also check that the gas cylinder lock screw snugs up the front handguard, but not a deal-breaker - as this can be fudged. I'd also check that the trigger guard requires some pressure to swing up and lock the mechanism into the stock. This can also be fudged around if loose, but it's a sign the stock wood is compressed or otherwise deteriorated. A direct-from-CMP gun will at least have the plus of being checked for headspace and gotten a few other gaugings by an armorer at some point. Avoids at least some of the "box of chocolates" pitfalls.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

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    We had three come into the shop about a week and a half ago. One was a civilian version. The other two were Grands but they had different dated receivers different barrels, mismatched stock wood. They've been back to an Armory somewhere.

    Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

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    Der-Gebirgsjager -- I am ever so appreciative of your response. I had not yet thought of a bore-light. Re the ammo bore-check, I doubt if I'd be allowed in with "ammunition" -- so --thanks to your advice -- I now plan on drilling and tapping the base of a Sierra (Garand) Match-King bullet. Screwing in a three inch 8-32 bolt should enable me to both have it on my person without fear of redoundent, and enable the test you checked. My friend suggested that these are all "rack", with a very few "service grade" firearms. He did add that if they weren't "101% safe to shoot", the CMP would not purvey them -- one less worry for me. However, I will be surprised if the variants of wear among them will not be huge. While "nice", I think furniture will be near my bottom selection criteria... of greater importance is the functioning/operation of the one I hope to select. Further, too, another THANK YOU -- I hadn't as yet given thought to the rear sight. I presently own one Garand, and it is a post-war Italian Beretta. Purchased many years ago from a Long Island dealer of the highest regard (Tony Pucci, Jr.), I was not faced with any of the choices affronting me with the sale I plan on attending.
    Again, I thank you for your word of wisdom; hard to believe that at age 70, I'm as excited as a kid before Christmas with my chance to purchase one of these.
    BEST!
    geo

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    Black-Powder-Bill: Thanks for your input. I take it the barrels are marked with maker's name; how important is it that it be the same as the receiver maker's? For example, my friend has an H&R Garand, with its barrel marked, "LMR". I imagine (I hope) a Springfield or an H&R will follow me home -- is the manufacturer of barrel of any real importance?

  7. #7
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    Is this a sale conducted by CMP, or is it a sale of accumulated M1s being sold by an individual or shop? If it is not a sale conducted by CMP (which requires qualifications-see their website), you can't be sure they are in fact CMP rifles unless they have the accompanying paperwork and certificates. Even then, the certificates only gives you some assurance that the rifle with that receiver SN came from CMP; it's easy to swap parts in Garands, so parts could have been switched.

    Today, everything worth anything is faked. S&W box labels (write in your gun's SN), Colt wood grips, etc. I believe the only way to be sure you're getting a genuine CMP rifle is to either buy it from CMP yourself or get it (with paperwork) from an individual who only occasionally sells such guns. I hesitate to say never, so I'll say CMP rifles should not have import marks on them.

    Go to the CMP website and see if you can find forum threads about faked CMP certificates or paperwork. You'll also see what they are charging for their M1s (if they have any for sale), and you can read threads about what rifles are in the pipeline, etc.

  8. #8
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    The CMP rifle grades fall within certain parameters for barrel wear. The CMP site will give you those parameters. I think each rifle from the CMP has a tag indicating barrel wear. The LMR barrels were regarded as the best barrels for accuracy and we're put on many IH and HR rifles of the 1950's. LMR barrels were used to rebuild earlier rifles.
    Garands were built by Springfield for WW2 and the others for Korea. The Korean rifles are generally thought to be better finished with the better barrels.
    Original rifles are sorted and sold for higher prices or auctioned on CMP site. You will probably like at several rifles and not much difference in there overall conditions. They will probably be a Mixmaster of parts.
    The holy grail is an all matching IH. The production numbers were Springfield,Winchester,HR then IH.
    Make sure you take all the documentation needed to purchase a rifle. You need to prove you are a US citizen and a member of a CMP club and have firearm training. See CMP site for all details,these may not be complete.
    Recivers,trigger group,barrel,op rod and stock cartouches add to the value. CMP has put new stocks on some grades. Also they sell rifles with a n aftermarket sniper mount. These are about worthless as original optics are next to impossible to find.

  9. #9
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    95% of garands or better are mixmasters. those that arent have been pieced together by owners along the way, or even the cmp. unless you want to get crazy, it is all about mechanical condition.

  10. #10
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    Do not be afraid of the Line Material Co. barrels, as they were considered to be of the highest quality, and I believe they were used on all IHC Garands, and also were used on over 100,000 of the later produced H&R rifles. The company made about 1,000,000 of them, with about half being used in arsenal rebuilds, so they can be considered appropriate on almost any well used rifle. There are not many "original" Garands left, as most have been through a couple of wars and were rebuilt for the next conflict, but most can be considered "correct" if rebuilt with original gov't contracted parts.

  11. #11
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    I would not worry or even go out of my way for one with a matching barrel. when I was shooting high power I had two restorers buy my take off barrels.

  12. #12
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    I can't add much to the above-- but if they are CMP rifles look for the yellow armorer's tag-- it will not only say rack or service grade but also may have throat and muzzle gage readings written on it (My Service Grade special came with that tag). As said above-- low numbers are best.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master roverboy's Avatar
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    I saw a video on youtube where they were collecting the Phillipine Garands. Some were in bad shape but, by now I'm sure they have refurbished them. I don't what kind of prices they are selling for. I got lucky on mine a few years ago and got a great price.
    Mrs. Hogwallop up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

  14. #14
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    RED LIGHT ALERT! WARNING - WARNING!!! Check the chamber for rust and pitting. A friend of mine bought a very nice looking - on the outside - M-1 from the CMP. He cleaned it up and took some factory ammo out to shoot. The 1st round hung up in the chamber ripping off the case rim! He cleared the case with a cleaning rod. The case looked like it had the worst case of chickens pox you ever saw! The chamber needed to be reamed with a chamber reamer to make it accept and eject fired rounds. Now he can only get 1 - 2 loadings from his brass. Corrosive rounds obviously had been used it this M-1 and poor chamber cleaning maintence. So if they look nice on the outside, look on the inside.Robert

  15. #15
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    Just my view here after building 3 for myself and looking at a lot of others. First, they are all mix masters, they were before their first war was over, so IMO don't even worry about it. Unless you are collecting, again IMO anyone will do, so look for a good receiver first, no pitting above or below the wood line would be a real plus. If I had a choice between good receiver and bad barrel and the other way around I'd go with the good receiver. Quality barrels are available and rebarreling one isn't a big deal again IMO. Things that are really important will be hard to check without the proper gauges. Tab length on the Op rod, piston diameter, and so on. Here is a really good tear down inspection description for the M1, hope this helps. http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-inspection

  16. #16
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    georgerkahn.,

    Imo, after buying Garands from CMP & having been a docent for the USAMP Museum, like buying real estate the 3 most important things are: CONDITION, CONDITION & CONDITION.

    Fwiw, in 2018 ALL Garands with a handful of exceptions have been re-arsenaled/rebuilt at depots & (in some cases) by civilian contractors, both in CONUS & OCONUS.
    (At one time or another, about 100 "friendly" & some "not so friendly" nations have officially or unofficially issued Garand rifles over the last nearly 8 decades. - Even the NAZI regime issued captured Garand rifles during WWII to police formations, paramilitary & "second & rear echelon" troops.)

    Fyi, in 1975 we of the MP Museum staff attempted to find an "as new" (and preferably unfired) Garand for our WWII display. - After more than a year of careful looking, we finally determined that there were none left in US Government hands, except for 4 "new" Garand rifles already in military museums & one at the Smithsonian's National History Museum. - We finally settled upon a SA 08/42 Garand that was "correct" & had been rebuilt at RRAD.

    While Garand rifles can be "corrected", nonetheless they are no more original than a rebuilt auto which is rebuilt from parts is.
    (As for me, I'm happy to have my pair of SA "Service Grade" rebuilds that were bought at the CMP North Store, as I'm a shooter/hunter, rather than primarily a collector.)

    My advice: GO to the CMP Store that is nearest to you & buy the best Service Grade that they have for sale, IF your quest is for a shooter, as I've never seen a SG sold by CMP that wasn't mechanically fine in every respect. Also, don't be afraid to ask the CMP employees at the store for help in selecting your rifle(s).
    (On my last trip to the North Store, two friends & I took my old Lincoln Town Car to the Store & returned to NOVA with 2 dozen Garands, a 1903 Springfield rifle, that was rebuilt at SA in 1918 & the back seat of the car full of cans of M2 Ball ammo.= The trip was like CHRISTMAS.)

    yours, tex

  17. #17
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    Just for perspective,in about 1979 myself and two relatives ordered DCM Garands. I got an all matching HR with a non walnut stock. My brother got a Mixmaster with a Winchester receiver and barrel,iirc and my cousin got a Springfield that looked brand new. I remember the price as $169.00.

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    I'm so glad I used my Christmas bonus a few years ago to buy my CMP special grade. I got a 1954 model H&R receiver. The special grade comes with new Criterion barrel, new walnut stock, and completely rebuilt and refinished. $1030 shipped.

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    wv109323,

    GOOD for you & your family on their NICE Garands.

    Fwiw, I suspect that CMP in 2018 is no more expensive than the rifles were in 1979, adjusted for 4 decades of inflation. = After all CMP is a non-profit organization.

    IF I remember correctly, I paid about 450.oo for my Springfield Armory of December of 1941. That Service Grade LOOKED new, though it was a RRAD Rebuild.

    My 2nd cousin in 2005 or 06 got the PURTIEST Korean War era Garand stock that I've ever seen from CMP. = The VP of our Garand club looked at Sterling's SG & commented, "HOLY COW!! That stock has more stripes than the average tiger."

    Though marked International Harvester, the receiver was evidently actually made at Springfield Armory. It has a LMR barrel, that gauges within the tolerances for a new Garand barrel. Certain other small parts are SA made, which is evidently commonplace for early 1953 IH rifles.
    The serial number is in the 4.5 million range, which dates it to early-mid 1953.

    Note: "A little bird told me" that CMP may well soon receive a moderate quantity of post-Korean War Garands that were sent under a foreign military aid program to SE Asia (I heard perhaps from Cambodia, but cannot confirm that.) but were evidently never issued.
    (It appears that several foreign nation's police/military forces received NEW "military aid program" H&R & IH rifles but never issued them; instead the Garand rifles were "put into storage for future use".. Some of those "received but not issued" nations were: Malaysia, Indonesia, Peru, Venezuela & Guatemala.)

    yours, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 09-03-2018 at 07:28 PM. Reason: typos

  20. #20
    Boolit Master roverboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcast416taylor View Post
    RED LIGHT ALERT! WARNING - WARNING!!! Check the chamber for rust and pitting. A friend of mine bought a very nice looking - on the outside - M-1 from the CMP. He cleaned it up and took some factory ammo out to shoot. The 1st round hung up in the chamber ripping off the case rim! He cleared the case with a cleaning rod. The case looked like it had the worst case of chickens pox you ever saw! The chamber needed to be reamed with a chamber reamer to make it accept and eject fired rounds. Now he can only get 1 - 2 loadings from his brass. Corrosive rounds obviously had been used it this M-1 and poor chamber cleaning maintence. So if they look nice on the outside, look on the inside.Robert
    When I bought mine the chamber looked good but, the bore looked like well used sewer pipe. I bought a nearly new VAR Danish barrel and it shoots great now. Some of them out there are kinda rough.
    Mrs. Hogwallop up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check