Found a nice 1909 Argentine Mountain Carbine

[Hick]

Back in May I was in Hawaii and the very last day had a few minutes to walk around and found a small gun shop. They had a Model 1909. It looked to be in OK shape but I didn't have time to look it over in detail. After returning home I decided to see if I could buy it-- maybe as a project gun if it was too badly worn. I got a really good price and it finally arrived this week. What a deal! It is a numbers matching Mountain Carbine (21.5" barrel, etc). Condition is good. a few very tiny rust areas but otherwise very nice. Bluing is good, and the bolt is in beautiful condition. The only place I could not find a serial number was on the stock-- so it might be too much wear or a replacement. I took it completely apart and all the parts look almost new. Rifling also looks good. Everything seems to function nicely, so tomorrow I'll take it out to the range and test it with some light loads-- then work up from there

[303Guy]

Great find! What loads will you be using?

[Texas by God]

Awesome find! DWM or FMAP?

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[leadhead]

I have a nice one and shoot nothing but cast in it. 16-16.5 grs of 2400
and a .314-.316 depending on bore dia. You know they only made about
10,000 of the mountain carbine? There kind of scarce. Have fun with it.
Denny

[Hick]

Texas by God-- DWM-- from online sources I've found this Mauser was part of the 1910 production run, when DWM made 6000 of them. The serial number on mine puts it about about late summer 1910. The second (and last) DWM run for this model was 4000 made in 1912.

I've got some Lyman 314299GC I'm going to use for the first test firing-- tomorrow if all goes well.

[Tripplebeards]

Don't know how you got a deal over there. The last couple times I was in Maui it was $8 for a gal of milk! Good thing I'm lactose intolerant.

[Kegcaissy]

I've got real good accuracy with a k98 wildly chambered in this caliber. Ideal 311413 sized at 0,314'' with gas checks over 18gr of IMR4198.

[Hick]

I don't know how I got such a good deal either (at least I assume it was a good deal: $250, DWM, every part except the stock is numbers matching, 'white' receiver and bolt, Clean Argentine crest, good bore). Took it out today with the lyman 314299GC using the Lyman starting load for 700x. I haven't done the load development yet to find out what it really likes. It was a little hard to shoot because of the v-notch sight (blurry with my artificial lenses in both eyes) but the first ten shots were under 3" at 100 yards with just a sandbag under the forend. It should do lots better with a peep sight and proper load development.

[Texas by God]

You did very well. The stocks # may be in the barrel channel.

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[Tripplebeards]

Yeah, figured there would be a one in front of the price when it came from the islands.

The only thing I have shot with mine with a whitetail leaping in mid air running full throttle try to cross a field on opening morning at about a 150 yards using Norma ammo and a Williams peep sight. I just shot my first buck a few minutes earlier on the other side of the hill and left my dad to haul it out. I switched rifles with him so he had a scope and took his Mauser for a walk. I hit it in the backbone while the deer was about 6-8' Airborne on a leap. It flipped sideways in the air and slid about 15 yards on the ground stone cold dead! I'll never forget the sight. It's one mean gun. Just wish it had a full stock and no holes drilled for the peep. I'm sure it killed the value.

Wonder if it's been laying around there since Pearl Harbor or if someone was using it as a pig gun?

[abunaitoo]

What shop did you get it from????
Most of the time, it would have been snapped up by one of our club members.
Many new shops have opened up in the last few years.
Some we stay away from.

[Hick]

abunaitoo: Honolulu Firearms

[abunaitoo]

That is one I've never been to.
Never been there.
May have to check them out later.

They changed their name.
I have been there.
Not one of the one's we go to.
Former owner gave it (?) to a church.(?).
Had to, he went to prison.
Guy now in charge, got run out of town a few years back.
Had a house fire.
Ripped off to many people.
Changed his name, and came back.
Lots of suckers live here.
Short memories.
Glad you got a good deal anyway.

[Argentino]

Congratulations, those carbines are not so common to find nowadays. There are still a few out there but they were produced in much smaller quantities than Infantry rifles.

BTW, it is an Engineer´s Carbine. Argentinean Army had only 3 main tipes of 1909 Mauser long guns:
full size Infantry rifles plus two types of carbines: Cavalry and Engineer´s carbines.

Argie.

[Hick]

The book I read said Mountain or Engineer's carbine-- both names are proper according to my sources-- but its a carbine either way, so I don't care.

[Argentino]

The book I read said Mountain or Engineer's carbine-- both names are proper according to my sources-- but its a carbine either way, so I don't care.

It is a carbine for sure. And a very nice one.

What I meant to respectfully point out is that they were always called Engineer´s carbines in their country of origin. They are not known as Mountain carbines in Argentina. Perhaps this definition was coined by collectors at some point. I don´t know for sure.

But I´m not arguing this, anyway. Just trying to share some information from the standpoint of the country who bought those carbines more than 100 years ago.

Argie.

[Hick]

I'm a little confused by the statement that they are always called Engineer's Carbines in Argentina. I've done research to try to find the true name. The Argentine factory records (FMAP in Rosario) available on the internet (see Argentine Battle Rifles) lists three model numbers for the 1909: FAM Mo. 1909 (Fusil Mauser Argentino) which is the 29 inch barrel, CMA Mo. 1909 (Carabina Mauser Argentina) which is the cavalry model, and CMAM Mo. 1909, which stands for Carabina Mauser Argentina with one other word that starts with M. I don't know what the extra M in the model name stands for. It could be Montaña (Mountain), it certainly is not Ingenerio (Engineer), but it might be some other Spanish word that starts with M. I realize that many were used for Engineer's units, but the official model name seems to hint at something else. I assume the M stands for Montaña which makes this a Mountain Carbine (at least officially), but can't prove it. Also, of course, we don't know what the official name of the carbine was as built by DWM-- which might be different as well. So, given that the FMAP model designation is CMAM Model 1909 I guess I'll stick with Mountain Carbine-- at least until I find better information. If you have other information that would help I'd love to learn more.

Hick

[Argentino]

Below is a link to a picture taken from the original 1909 Mauser book issued to Argentinean troops when these rifles came into service replacing the older 1891 Model. It was printed in 1911.

It was also reprinted in the 1961, when 1909 rifles were replaced by FALs and then sold as military surplus to civilian market. (I have this same book somewhere but I thought it would be easier to post a pic already uploaded).

As you can see it mentions three different types of 1909 Argentine Mauser rifles. No mention to "montaña" (mountain) is written there.

AFAIK, this is the one and only reference book that was printed at the time when these rifles were issued.
Therefore, I´m under the impression that any other definition not contained in this book was coined by collectors many years after it was printed.


https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=m...tXRvgd6myTSNM:

[Texas by God]

Those and the 1891 carbines are so cool. When I was in FFA in jr high school you could win a rifle for selling the most magazine subscriptions. The 1891 was the prize I lusted for but never got! Guns in the school(oh the horror)!

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[Hick]

Argentino-- thank your for the link-- it's plenty convincing. Its hard to understand why the Argentine factory model numbers should be different--but I find myself agreeing with you

Hick