Next steps to increase accuracy ?

[Road_Clam]

So thus far i'm seeing less than expected accuracy with my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps. Got out this weekend and tried both 68g and 70g of Swiss 1.5. Best i'm shooting is about 5-6 moa at 200 meters. Typically what would be the next step as far as tweaking the load ? Powder or maybe paper thickness ? My bore measures .450 , my bullets are the BACO 540 gr "Money" casting at .442" and i'm running the 9# onion skin paper which is .002 so I think i'm close with my paper selection.

[Bent Ramrod]

I’m going to assume your rifle is a .45-70.

Check your cleaning regimen. Bore should be clean and dry for every shot.

Check your alloy. Money boolits in particular seem to need harder alloys to keep the noses straight.

Start adding powder. My .45-70 didn’t sit up and talk until I had reached 80 gr, and that charge works with Swiss 1 or 1-1/2 Fg.

[Don McDowell]

That 540 gr bullet is likely just a bit long for the 18 twist. In the generous chamber's of the pedersoli, you may want to consider going to a .446 or .448 diameter bullet, hold the length to 1.35, and use a thinner paper than your 9 lb.
Also be mindful of the wads you have under the bullet, to thin or to soft allows for blow by and gas cutting on the bullets.
And last but certainly not least be mindful of fouling control.

[BrentD]

You need a lot more powder. 10-12 grsn more.

[craneman]

While my experience with Pedersoli rifles is little, the large long freebore you likely have might make a conventional bore diameter paper patch bullet difficult to work with consistently. A groove diameter bullet or a two diameter bullet may likely work better.
Just a thought. Brent is right though too. Get that powder charge up to 82-83 grained with the bullet barely in the case would get you much closer.

Todd

[Gunlaker]

I also agree with much of what has been said. Jack up that powder charge to fill the case. A very clean/dry bore between shots is super important when shooting PP if you want top accuracy.

Are you seating it very shallow, like 0.1" in the case?

How snugly (is that a word ?) does the patched bullet fit the bore? There should be some resistance upon chambering the round, i.e. you want to feel the bullet engaging the lands as it slides in. I've never had decent accuracy with poor fitting bullets. If necessary use a sizing die on the patched bullets. I run mine through a 0.451" Lee push through sizer.

Don I have shot 540gr ( 1.51" long ) Money bullets through a 1:18 twist .45-70 at 500m and although I don't think it's ideal, they did shoot quite well, definitely under 1.5 minutes of vertical dispersion so I don't think that will make for a 5-6 minute group at close range. But you are right of course that for serious work it wants to be shortened.

I have also own a rifle ( C. Sharps .45-2-7/8" ) that just doesn't shoot bore diameter patched bullets very well unless a lube cookie is used.

Chris.

[Road_Clam]

Thanks for the tips. I'll first test some 80+ grain loads. I'm also running a BACO .030" poly wad. Pretty confident my between shot cleaning is adequate. I do one wet scrub with a nylon brush, one slightly moist patch swab, one dry swab.

[Distant Thunder]

Chris,
I agree, it has been my experience that cases longer than the 2.4 can benefit from the use of a lube wad or cookie. I have never used a lube cookie in my .45-70 or .45-90 and never needed to.
Absolutely right on the fit. Once I got my bullets to have a slight resistance as they enter the bore accuracy improved a lot. I patch mine to .451" and size like you do to .4505" which ia a perfect fit in my bore.
Bullets that push the edge on length for a given twist or even exceed it by a small amount can shoot quite well when things are fairly calm and/or steady, but when conditions get switchy and especially when quartering head or tail winds are involve they will become very unstable quickly. I always try to stay with a length that is well stabilized by my rifles twist rate. Extra weight is not any good in a marginally stable bullet. In a .45 caliber with an 18-twist I find a bullet of 1.430-1.440" to be best in rough conditions.
-----
Road Clam,

If your rifle as any amount of freebore you may be better off with either a groove diameter design paper patch bullet or a 2-diameter design. It depends on just how long your freebore is. More information about your chamber would help us help you. Anyway I look at it you're shy on powder and probably seating your bullet too deep in the case, even if it is a .45-70. You should be using 82-83 grains of 1 1/2 in a .45-70 & 98-105 in a .45-90. Your bullets should be no more than .100" deep in the case.

Bullet fit to YOUR chamber is very important for top target accuracy, the rest is fine tuning, get the fit correct first.

DT

[Distant Thunder]

Road Clam,

Switch to a .060 LDPE wad, they are usually as good as it gets.

DT

[Road_Clam]

Here's the other issue I realized last night, I casted about 30 Money boolits a few months ago and after careful measuring with a mic the batch is measuring .441 to .442 some are even measuring .4405 so this is concerning and needs to be addressed. I had issues with "cold" moulds and pour temps so I need to better monitor my temps.

[BrentD]

I think you would also benefit from 0.06" poly wads when shooting bore diameter bullets.

[rfd]

Here's the other issue I realized last night, I casted about 30 Money boolits a few months ago and after careful measuring with a mic the batch is measuring .441 to .442 some are even measuring .4405 so this is concerning and needs to be addressed. I had issues with "cold" moulds and pour temps so I need to better monitor my temps.

aside from the usual heat up prior to casting, my regimen with moulds is to use a #64 rubber band doubled around the handle ends for a consistent handle pressure, and to make sure the mould is seamlessly closed before pouring in the alloy. the last slick stays in the mould, the mould is left closed to fully cool down, then i wrap the mould with "press 'n' seal" kitchen wrap, insures it's sealed off from air. whenever the next casting session occurs, the wrap is removed, the slick released out, and the mould is clean and ready to be preheated for a casting session. no brake cleaning solvents or oils are needed. i cast at 710f, the entire ladle is poured into and spilled over the mould to insure the sprue area is well heated, and the resulting slicks are very consistent in both weight and diameter, with few culls for weight or aberrations. with 1:16 alloy, the Jim443530e drops at 523.5 grains +/- .3 grains on the average. i'll take that any day.

[Road_Clam]

aside from the usual heat up prior to casting, my regimen with moulds is to use a #64 rubber band doubled around the handle ends for a consistent handle pressure, and to make sure the mould is seamlessly closed before pouring in the alloy. the last slick stays in the mould, the mould is left closed to fully cool down, then i wrap the mould with "press 'n' seal" kitchen wrap, insures it's sealed off from air. whenever the next casting session occurs, the wrap is removed, the slick released out, and the mould is clean and ready to be preheated for a casting session. no brake cleaning solvents or oils are needed. i cast at 710f, the entire ladle is poured into and spilled over the mould to insure the sprue area is well heated, and the resulting slicks are very consistent in both weight and diameter, with few culls for weight or aberrations. with 1:16 alloy, the Jim443530e drops at 516.5 grains +/- .3 grains on the average. i'll take that any day.

One does not learn casting the heavies overnight that's for sure. I'm in a frustrating learning curve. My BACO Money slick mould is of awesome quality. The test pour bullet BACO sent me is .4430" and is just a work of art as far as surface uniformity so it's NOT the mould's fault it's all me. Thus far I was trying to cast with my LEE Pro pot and bottom line it simply lacks agequate flow volume to pour the 500+ gr boolits in a timely manner. I have since bough a ladle but have not yet experimented with it. I'm also learning a repeatable method to maintain good hot mould temps.

[rfd]

yes, forget bottom pour and do use a quality ladle. just takes some practice and a good process.

[Bent Ramrod]

It was paper patch boolits that for me moved the pot thermometer and the lead hardness tester from the “gimmick” column to the “necessary” column in the casting regimen.

Whether the thermometer is strictly accurate or not doesn’t matter, as long as the needle moves as the lead heats up. I find the temperature at which, when I’m casting at my normal speed, the lead starts to smear on the top of the blocks despite my sprue cooling efforts. I subtract a couple needle widths from this temperature and don’t let the lead go more than 25-30 degrees below this point.

Narrowing the temperature range in this way has tightened up the grain weight variance of the castings significantly. The few culls I get as the mould heats up are used for hardness testing, then thrown into the alloy can to be blended into the next batch.

Some claim they can cast big rifle boolits with bottom pour pots, but I find that in bottom pouring I cast a lot of culls and get few “keepers.” If your primary interest is shooting rather than learning the Dark Arts of boolit casting, get a RCBS ladle.

[country gent]

On my Lyman and RCBS ladles I open the spouts hole up to .205-.210 size and chamfer the inside lightly with a dowel and valve grinding compound. This increases flow and gives a smoother surface than the cast surface. On my rowel #1 I shortened the handle shaft up some. this takes some leverage away from the bigger ladle. It also made it easier for me to control it. I cast from a big pot 100+ pounds when full over a propane burner, the mass really slows the temp swings. Once the burner is set to maintain the temp it hangs right there.

Several pointers for casting these bullets. Heat mould to start
When not using ladle keep it in the pot, this keeps the ladle fully up to temp
Don't pour for a sprue but over pour the mould letting excess run back into the pot
When casting cast, when sorting sort don't try to do both at the same time. doing both slows down your cadence and breaks concentration.
I pre heat on a moulid shelf and throw the first 10-15 drops back in on general principle, The rest are keepers generaly.

[indian joe]

Agree 100% with the last couple posts (not a PPB'er but have shot a lot of big boolits)
For a long time I thought I was deprived not having a lectric pot and such gimmicry - always worked with a cast iron pot on a propane stove top (old kitchen stove I scrounged) - I have the whole casting bench shebang setup on an old hospital bed on wheels - can move it in or out of my workshop for airflow and my own comfort.

BIG lead pot !!! most important - 40 pound or so of melt as minimum
Good quality ladle
Recently got an in pot thermometer.
Every mold will have a sweet spot - once you find it forget everything else and just cast till you tired of it

[Road_Clam]

Thanks for all the ladle tips. I have the Lyman ladle and I also purchased an industrial 200-1000F thermometer so I should get on the right track for better casting. I'll be sure and post a follow up. It's been way too hot here to cast (90's) so as soon as temps cool a bit i'll get back at it !

[Edward]

Thanks for all the ladle tips. I have the Lyman ladle and I also purchased an industrial 200-1000F thermometer so I should get on the right track for better casting. I'll be sure and post a follow up. It's been way too hot here to cast (90's) so as soon as temps cool a bit i'll get back at it !

Been hot here too but if I don"t get to casting today it will be a short session tomorrow ,been shooting to regular to coast on casting

[rfd]

i hear ya, ed - i'm casting today for NEXT friday