Loading for a match.

[rfd]

DT et al -

shot today at the 200 yard line, hot sun 97f and beastly humid, weird breezes at the line and down at the pits, fired off 40 rounds with the sharps and called it a sweaty day.

only TWO fired cases extracted on the first action opening while the other 38 cases required 2 to 3 snaps of the lever to shoot out the hot brass (which sometimes wasn't fun in shorts and a t-shirt). a few cases required 4 snaps. i guess this is not a good thing for the lever or extractor. maybe i need to try the dropping brass weight down the muzzle trick. snapping the lever seems like it would be faster, and in some of my matches time is extremely important (i.e. - 35 rounds in 45 minutes). fwiw, this was the third firing of this brass in this sharps.

.45-2.1 cartridge build = fire formed starline brass that was once annealed new before reforming to fit the PPB chamber, std federal 210 primer, 83.2 grains of swiss 1-1/2f, .060 LDPE wad, .060 compression, Jim443530e slick with fidelity 9# wrapped dry that pushed into the brass exactly .010 and then run into a die that very slightly makes sure the PPB won't fall out (but will twist and pull out easily w/fangers). all shooting done sitting off cross sticks, out in the open hot sun.

after i lit off about 10 rounds the barrel got crazy hot. 2 shot groups were pretty good (for me), but the accuracy floored me on the last 4 rounds that together aggregated at near 1moa. this isn't the norm for me which is typically more like 3moa, and 2moa on a good day. gave me a happy "woo hoo!" moment, so i'm gonna try to learn to live with battling sticky brass extractions.

while greaser chambers probably work ok for minute-of-deer accuracy, a custom PPB chamber is just plain killer in every other respect EXCEPT case extraction (at least for me). i know that shiloh offers the orville c. loomer sorta/kinda PPB chamber ream as an option - i heard it's not a true PPB chamber (?). one thing for sure, almost any greaser barrel chamber can be breech sleeved and PPB chamber reamed. it would be good to know if other PPB reamers are available, and if so, get a listing together to help out ourselves and brother paper patch way pilgrims.

what the hey, i'll ring up bobby hoyt tomorrow and tell him to sleeve and PPB ream the .45-2.1 roller, too. i guess i like living on the edge. or maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment.

[Don McDowell]

A standard Shiloh chamber 45-xx shoots paper patch just fine.

[rfd]

A standard Shiloh chamber 45-xx shoots paper patch just fine.

heck, most any bpcr rifle chamber can accept a PPB, so "shoots paper patch just fine" as in what kind of overall PPB accuracy for target work and not hunting? if a person loaded for PPBs exclusively, would they want that chamber? i would think that "standard shiloh chamber" is for lubed bullets and so it'll be "loose" and have some amount of throat. i don't want that, and neither would anyone shooting PPBs exclusively.

[Distant Thunder]

The whole sticky cases thing is puzzling to me.

After it became evident a couple years ago that the problem wasn't going away I started marking cases that stuck. Sometimes at a match they would find their way back into the other cases, but over several matches I was able to separate the sticky cases or at least most of them and mark them before putting them back in circulation. I was really trying to see if it was the same cases that continued to be sticky. As I was thinking if I had a case stick at a match it would have the mark indicating it had stuck before. Those that stuck again after being marked were remove from circulation. It appears that I finally have separated the sticky ones, 12 pcs., and I haven't had any stick this year so far. The rest of my brass will be fired in the upcoming Lodi match. There could be a sticky case or two in the 100+ that I haven't shot yet this year. They may even be marked that they have stuck before or not, but any sticky ones will be pulled and dealt with like the other sticky ones I have set aside.

I then plan to work with these sticky cases to see if I can get past the problem. If they continue to stick in spite of my efforts to "fix" the problem I'll just remove them permanently. It is not worth the hassle during a match to have to get up and knock the thing out.

I am still not convinced it is a chamber problem, but more of a brass problem. No matter which it is I'm not even considering changing the chamber of my rifle in any way. This is by far the most accurate of the four long-range rifles I have shot. There was no flies on my Shiloh .45-90 with bore diameter ppb either. I just had to have a Hepburn and this one is special, if only because I built it myself. I did have a little help from a very good gunsmith and a few other friends or it never would have happened. It took me 4 years to build it if you don't count the 3 years of planning and thinking about it, that ain't bad.

DT

[Distant Thunder]

As I just said, I did very well shooting long-range with my Shiloh .45-90 with a standard gg chamber. Very short throat and rather tight for a gg chamber. For those have tried that I know the standard Shiloh gg chamber is about the best gg chamber for paper patch shooting. That rifle was very accurate with gg bullets, but it jumped to a whole new level with bore diameter paper patch. I would go back to shooting it for my long-range matches without hesitation, but I like my Hepburn. That and with ppb I was burning 100-105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss with every shot, that's really more than needed out to 1000 yards. I'm much happier with 83 grains in my .45-70 and the tight paper patch chamber is easier to deal with. Don't let anyone tell you differently, those Shilohs will shoot ppb very well.

DT

[rfd]

... I'm much happier with 83 grains in my .45-70 and the tight paper patch chamber is easier to deal with. Don't let anyone tell you differently, those Shilohs will shoot ppb very well.

understood. not having a viable PPB chamber, the shiloh std chamber makes sense if you were buying a shiloh. however, if yer gonna load/shoot PPB exclusively, would you want that shiloh gg chamber or the custom PPB chamber you now have (sticky case warts and all)? i'm gonna be selfish and go for the true PPB. what if folks and manufacturers had a PPB chamber ream choice? or knew of a PPB reamer they could rent and have it used either on a new rifle build or for sleeving their existing rifle? there's a reason that PPBs had slipped off the radar and now some folks are just realizing the PPB potential.

[Lead pot]

OK JIM do this. I wasn't going to mention this because using the plastic wads users and I'm one.

Take a couple of the cases that stick and are cleaned and unsized and chamber one empty and see if it seats fully with thumb pressure and close the breach and open it and see if the case extracts. If not run it through the sizing die fully and re do the process again. If the case loads and extract hard again take some tool bluing or a felt marker and color the case and chamber it and look where it's rubbing. Most likely it will be at the base just above the rim or at the case mouth where the wad was seated.

If the sticking unsized empty case chambers fine unloaded, load the case unprimed with just a paper wad over the flash hole so the powder don't leak out use the wad as usual and compress the powder if you do normally and seat that unprimed loaded round and pay attention if the seating pressure changes and close the breach and extract to see if the case sticks again.

I have a problem with .06" plastic wads pushing the neck walls out enough that loading and extracting is hard. I used to think that I had the bullet patched to thick were in reality it was the wad expanding the case mouth. I bumped some tight fitting rounds in the sizing die and this fixed the problem with the case that stuck.

Now when I get new cases I load them a couple times with card wads before changing back to plastic. My .40-65 that is very tight is the only rifle that really gave me a problem and now when I open the breach the cases slide right out but it took 3 or 4 cycles with some cases.

[Distant Thunder]

If I were ordering a new Shiloh and knew I wanted to shoot paper patch and could live without greasers I would definitely go with their pp chamber. It is so nice not to have to dink around with brass that needs to be sized or crimped so much. I think more and more people will be going that route. There is a history in these big single shots and paper patch bullets are a part of that. And there's always the cool factor of paper patch, if that matters to you. I know that I for one look much better shooting paper patch than I ever do while shooting greasers!

DT

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

You're talking about the wad expanding the case neck when you compress the powder?

I'm only compressing about an 1/8" for my Hepburn with 83 grains. I wouldn't think that would cause a problem. If it did I would just compress without the wad and then hand seat the wad like I had to do back when I was grease grooving and compressing .300" to get 82.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my old .40-70 C, Sharps. That load won my first NRA regional for me, so it does work. I wouldn't want to do that anymore.

And I can't use card wads in my Hepburn anyway. Those things caused leading like I've never seen before when I first started load development. It took me hours to clean it all out of my barrel. That is the last time I tried cards wads, they never give me as good of accuracy as LDPE anyway.

It still comes down to the fact that I have 12 cases out of 200 that will stick almost every time I shoot them, maybe every time I'm not sure. It has to be something about those 12 cases. I have no idea what?

DT

[rfd]

... I bumped some tight fitting rounds in the sizing die and this fixed the problem with the case that stuck...

last week i had 10 rounds out of a box of 50 that would not fully chamber, about 1/8" or so of the head past the sharps breech opening. wouldn't even chamber with a cam breech seater. baffling. thinking i didn't originally reform the brass properly and did just what you had mentioned above, then they all chambered and shot fine today, but still had extraction issues.

Now when I get new cases I load them a couple times with card wads before changing back to plastic. My .40-65 that is very tight is the only rifle that really gave me a problem and now when I open the breach the cases slide right out but it took 3 or 4 cycles with some cases.

whoa, now that's a revelation! i .060 LDPE wad all rounds. so it's affected the brass only, not the breech walls (ringing)? what does the 3 or 4 card wad cycles do to condition the brass before going back to plastic, i don't get that part?

[Don McDowell]

Sizing cases doesn't bother me. Most folks miss or don't know the paper patch bullets the ODG's fired in their target rifle sharps used a bullet at .446 patched to .451 diameter.
Standard shiloh 45-70 chamber shoots just fine with patched, the previous owner of the rifle only shot grooved, but I have not fired a grooved bullet in it and don't intend to.
The groups it's shooting are plenty good enough to shoot match with, as evidenced by the 8 1/8 inch group I fired on the fifth target,500 meters down range, at the state match last week. Wish I had a picture of it, but we don't. I do however have a picture of the group I fired working up that load. The 45-90 chamber Eron Ahmer uses is intended for grease groove, but it shoots paper patch quite well.

[rfd]

If I were ordering a new Shiloh and knew I wanted to shoot paper patch and could live without greasers I would definitely go with their pp chamber. It is so nice not to have to dink around with brass that needs to be sized or crimped so much. I think more and more people will be going that route. There is a history in these big single shots and paper patch bullets are a part of that. And there's always the cool factor of paper patch, if that matters to you. I know that I for one look much better shooting paper patch than I ever do while shooting greasers!

DT

i'm with ya 100%. it's been a long and rewarding PPB journey for me, and that's probably what turns folks off from doing it the olde tyme way. those folks knew better, back in their day.

[Lead pot]

Whoa Why would a .060" LDPE wad seated on the powder ring a chamber wall???

I always said that your not fire forming a straight wall case. One fire forms a bottle neck case formed from a straight walled case then fire forming to fully fit shoulder and neck to the chamber. Shooting a straight walled case will make full chamber contact on the whole case but your not forming anything.
Jim I can't say why using the card wads first does other then putting less pressure on the chamber wall with the soft case neck.
I think using a .060" LPDE expands the new annealed case against the chamber wall that is tight anyway with no room to open up to release the wad easier making the case tighter. All the tight cases stopped after a few shots fired because the annealed case neck walls rehardened again giving it a little spring back loosening the case from the chamber wall.

But again this is just a guess on my part.

[Lead pot]

I might add;
Full length size a sticking case and load it with a full charge of powder with just a couple or just one wad holding the powder and shoot it as a blank with no bullet and see how it extracts.

I made a sizing die with out that round EZ edge at the opening so it sizes clear down to the limit this is where the case is tight at the base.

[rfd]

Whoa Why would a .060" LDPE wad seated on the powder ring a chamber wall???

i have no clue if that's even possible, but as yer saying it sounds like it's affecting the brass.

I always said that your not fire forming a straight wall case. One fire forms a bottle neck case formed from a straight walled case then fire forming to fully fit shoulder and neck to the chamber. Shooting a straight walled case will make full chamber contact on the whole case but your not forming anything.

i dunno maybe it's semantics? new starline brass won't chamber for me (in a PPB chamber) and is reformed with a modded sizing die. the resulting brass chambers easily, removes easily, whether charged or not. i can't see how it'd be a perfect chamber fit. but upon ignition it is formed to the chamber, whether or not it extracts easily.

Jim I can't say why using the card wads first does other then putting less pressure on the chamber wall with the soft case neck.
I think using a .060" LPDE expands the new annealed case against the chamber wall that is tight anyway with no room to open up to release the wad easier making the case tighter. All the tight cases stopped after a few shots fired because the annealed case neck walls rehardened again giving it a little spring back loosening the case from the chamber wall.

then why bother annealing the brass at all? i did anneal the starline brass neck, thinking it'd make reforming easier. but if i didn't anneal, and reformed the new brass, would that suggest there'd be more spring back and less of a chance of case sticking? i should try that as a test.

But again this is just a guess on my part.

....................

[flatsguide]

I wonder if you have an extractor issue. I’m not that knowledgeable on single shot actions and the way extractors work, but I’d explore that possibility. How much effort do you need to tap the stuck cases out? I need to get, is it Haas’s book on single shots ?

[Distant Thunder]

Lots of stuff here!

I have never annealed my Starline brass. I just cut my full length size die off on the bottom end so I could run the brass farther into it and it would drop into my chamber for the fire forming initially. That left the die square and sharp on the bottom ID. I very lightly chamfered the edge so it wouldn't scrape the brass.

To size my sticky case all the way to the rim I set the size die up so it is .070" off the top of a smaller caliber shell holder. I take a case and slide it up into the die to start it, the case is not in the shell holder. I then bring the ram up with the smaller shell holder in place so the brass is on top of the shell holder. The case is lubed of course. I can then push the case all the way up into the die until the rim contacts the bottom of the die. The top of the size die has been cut off too. That may or may not be necessary. I lower the ram and put a special punch I made into the mouth of the case, the punch locates in the flash hole and I can then tap the case down and out of the die using a hammer and without damage to the flash hole.

Doing it this way makes sure the case is sized all the way to the rim. I've only done this with the sticky cases. Any brass that is not giving me trouble I don't ever size unless for some reason it should need it. I don't think it ever will need to be sized.

I will probably fire form these sized cases using a smokeless powder, COW and a couple of wads the first time, maybe. Then I'll load them the normal way and fire form them again. If they don't stick I'll consider reintroducing them to the normal match loading and keep an eye on them so I know when they are being shot. Remember I marked all of the bad brass so I can ID them easy enough.

If I can't get them to play nice it's only 12 pcs and I'll just toss them. Hopefully none of the other brass will develop a sticking problem down the road. That would be bad.

As for extractors, Hepburns have very weak extraction and really no camming power either. Loaded rounds have to chamber very easy or not at all. All the rest of my brass, all the same lot, falls out of the chamber when the block is lowered. The extractor just gets it started.

Good brass should not stick in a good chamber anyway. If you have to force it out with the extractor or by other means there is something wrong. I hope to figure out just what the heck is causing this problem. I may have some time to play with it next week before Lodi, otherwise it will have to wait until afterwards. Fall gets to be a very busy time of the year for me and winter in northeast Wisconsin doesn't wait until your ready, it just shows up one day and refuses to leave until some time in May or early June. God's country! I love it!

DT

[Chill Wills]

Sizing cases doesn't bother me. Most folks miss or don't know the paper patch bullets the ODG's fired in their target rifle sharps used a bullet at .446 patched to .451 diameter.
Standard shiloh 45-70 chamber shoots just fine with patched, the previous owner of the rifle only shot grooved, but I have not fired a grooved bullet in it and don't intend to.
The groups it's shooting are plenty good enough to shoot match with, as evidenced by the 8 1/8 inch group I fired on the fifth target,500 meters down range, at the state match last week. Wish I had a picture of it, but we don't. I do however have a picture of the group I fired working up that load. The 45-90 chamber Eron Ahmer uses is intended for grease groove, but it shoots paper patch quite well.

Don, I tried to give Ethan my camera to take a picture of your group before he painted it but I was not fast enough. He was off on that 4-wheeler faster than I could catch him.
It was a good target and worth a picture.

[Don McDowell]

Thank you sir. I figured it was a pretty good group as excited as you(for those that don't know Chill Will's he's not an excitable guy) and the rest of the crew were getting. I was really happy when that last shot broke clean and the sights disappeared after the fire and smoke were visible in the aperture, and then when you talked me into looking thru the scope, I soon saw why all the hoorahs. Ethan is the grand champion of target setters for sure, that young man is going places I think.
That rifle sure pleases me, and I'm thinking it will be the midrange gun for the nationals if they don't cancel.

[rfd]

Lots of stuff here!

I have never annealed my Starline brass. I just cut my full length size die off on the bottom end so I could run the brass farther into it and it would drop into my chamber for the fire forming initially. That left the die square and sharp on the bottom ID. I very lightly chamfered the edge so it wouldn't scrape the brass.

To size my sticky case all the way to the rim I set the size die up so it is .070" off the top of a smaller caliber shell holder. I take a case and slide it up into the die to start it, the case is not in the shell holder. I then bring the ram up with the smaller shell holder in place so the brass is on top of the shell holder. The case is lubed of course. I can then push the case all the way up into the die until the rim contacts the bottom of the die. The top of the size die has been cut off too. That may or may not be necessary. I lower the ram and put a special punch I made into the mouth of the case, the punch locates in the flash hole and I can then tap the case down and out of the die using a hammer and without damage to the flash hole.

Doing it this way makes sure the case is sized all the way to the rim. I've only done this with the sticky cases. Any brass that is not giving me trouble I don't ever size unless for some reason it should need it. I don't think it ever will need to be sized.

I will probably fire form these sized cases using a smokeless powder, COW and a couple of wads the first time, maybe. Then I'll load them the normal way and fire form them again. If they don't stick I'll consider reintroducing them to the normal match loading and keep an eye on them so I know when they are being shot. Remember I marked all of the bad brass so I can ID them easy enough.

If I can't get them to play nice it's only 12 pcs and I'll just toss them. Hopefully none of the other brass will develop a sticking problem down the road. That would be bad.

As for extractors, Hepburns have very weak extraction and really no camming power either. Loaded rounds have to chamber very easy or not at all. All the rest of my brass, all the same lot, falls out of the chamber when the block is lowered. The extractor just gets it started.

Good brass should not stick in a good chamber anyway. If you have to force it out with the extractor or by other means there is something wrong. I hope to figure out just what the heck is causing this problem. I may have some time to play with it next week before Lodi, otherwise it will have to wait until afterwards. Fall gets to be a very busy time of the year for me and winter in northeast Wisconsin doesn't wait until your ready, it just shows up one day and refuses to leave until some time in May or early June. God's country! I love it!

DT

good scoop, jim - thank you. i'm going to experiment with some new starline brass straight out of the bag, lube it with imperial wax and run it into my modded die using a .45 shell holder first to get most of the sizing done, then do exactly what you've done in your text above to insure the base of the cases get into the die. said brass will get loaded as usual, but some with LDPE wads and some with card wads instead.