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Thread: Starting a new Remington Rolling Block project

  1. #21
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Yes Tex, it was a great day for those who want a 9.3x74R in a bolt action rifle, the 9.3x62 packs a very big Wallup.
    Sorry to hear about your drilling, was the rest of the combo SXS 16ga???

    Two of my African battery.


    I've left a message for Dave at CH4 to see what brass can possibly be used to form the 450/400 Black Powder Express case, dies most likely will run aroung $200 for a three die set. Huntington will be up there too.

    One last thought the swiss have a cartridge the 10.3 x 60R Swiss, it might be this same cartridge but under another name, might be worth checking out, that cartridge is still available through RWS.
    Last edited by MOA; 08-24-2018 at 06:55 PM.

  2. #22
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    MOA,

    YEP. 16x16x9.3x74 = I was heartbroken to have it stolen.

    My treasured 9.3x62mm is a Remington Model 760 in .30-06 that was reformatted by Jessie at JES.

    Jessie's work is FLAWLESS & very reasonable in price. - The 760 shoots FAR better than I do at age 71.

    My next project for Jessie is sending him yet another 760 (that I got for "peanuts", with a badly rusted/pitted barrel).
    It will return to TX (very likely) as a .400 Brown-Whelen Improved.
    (The .400BWI is every bit as powerful as the "well-regarded in Africa" .404 Jeffrey's. = Nearly 4000FPE is no slouch, using a 400grain GCCB/JSP/solid.)

    ImVho, a suitable repeating Dangerous Game Rifle for <350.ooUSD is hard to beat.

    yours, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 08-24-2018 at 07:44 PM. Reason: typos

  3. #23
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Ok, a little more comparative information on the 450/400 2-3/8" BPE and the Swiss cartridge.

    The charts






    I think that should get you close enough to work. What you think Tex??

    Graf an Sons has it:
    Bertram Brass 10.3x60R Swiss Formed Unprimed Box of 20
    $84.99 SALE $76.49

  4. #24
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Yup, hard to beat that 350.00 with an ugly stick if you tried to. Sound like a fun gun to me.

  5. #25
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    MOA,

    Based on your data, I just changed my mind. = As factory cases are available (I'd bet that molds & dies are available, at least in SZ, too.). the 10.3x60R would be my choice in a big-bore, over the .450/400 NEBP.
    (Especially since 2 or 3 twenty-round boxes for reusable cases should last a person a considerable length of time as Cast Boolit reloaded ammo.)

    I would guess that you could load that 10.3x60mm case with the .41 caliber GCCB to at least 1800FPS, using something like a 300-350 grain hard-cast boolits. = That boolit would "hit" with considerable authority.

    yours, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 08-24-2018 at 08:53 PM. Reason: typos/grammar

  6. #26
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Ya Tex, have to agree with your assessment, big 10-4 on a currently produced case with dies, moulds available without a lot of issues. If I didn't already have two 12,7x44R that I like just the way they are and needed a bigger bang stick than my 45-70 I might be temped to alter one of them. I think my 400 Jeffery is big enough for anything I'll be hunting during the rest of my days.




  7. #27
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    MOA,

    UNDERSTOOD.

    yours, tex

  8. #28
    Boolit Man
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    Even though it may now be moot, here are the pictures of the roller parts, after they came out of the EvapoRust. They were rinsed in hot water, and as they dried a little surface rust began to form, as you can see in the pictures.The barrel is a stub because I didn't want to store the full-length action. The bore was completely gone, the rifling was more of a suggestion than actual metal, and terribly pitted. However, the action is nearly perfect, as I hope you can see in the pictures. The only pitting on any part of the action is on the edges and bottom surfaces of the tang, where they were in contact with the wood of the buttstock.

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    Last edited by THerbert; 08-24-2018 at 10:29 PM. Reason: typo
    Tom Herbert
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    SASS #102029, Alias "Layte Comer"

  9. #29
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    THerbert,

    NIFTY. I'm looking forward to photos of your completed RB.

    Fwiw, I'm very fond of & currently have 2 RB rifled military muskets. - One in .50-70 US Government (which was once the property of the USN & also of The Buffalo Guards of the NYSNM) & the other from the Copenhagen Royal Arsenal in 11.7x56mm Danish.

    Also, the owner & I are discussing my purchase of a RRB Rifled Musket that formerly (according to the markings) belonged to the National Police of Peru. - It's in 7x57mm Mauser caliber.

    yours, tex
    Last edited by texasnative46; 08-24-2018 at 11:25 PM. Reason: clarity

  10. #30
    Boolit Man
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    Tex,
    My 50-70 started out life as a NYSM rifle; it still has the original stock on it. When I bought the rifle, it had a 20" .30 caliber barrel on it, either a .30-30 or a .30-40 Krag. I couldn't do a chamber cast on it because some previous owner had gotten into the chamber to remove a stuck case, I guess, and used a chisel or something like that. There were gigantic gouges in the chamber walls. But I was able to purchase a custom .50-70 barrel from another member on this site, I think, a 32" half octagon. He had taken it off, and it was just sitting in a corner, so a got it for a very good price, and my rifle shoots very well with it.

    Tom
    Tom Herbert
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    SASS #102029, Alias "Layte Comer"

  11. #31
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    THerbert, I didn't notice in the parts a extractor. What type of extractor is with this action? And what have you been thinking about on a caliber for this project?

  12. #32
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    To start with I think your planned steps are out of order. The very last thing I'd do is apply color case and bluing. Working up stocks, and fitting/bluing the barrel on a freshly color cased receiver is a big mistake. Do all the metal work, and stock work, and then disassemble to have finish applied. I even shoot mine in the white prior to disassembling for finish, in case there's an issue that pops up.
    I'd start by polishing out the receiver parts and getting the barrel fitted. Then fit the stocks and once they're closely fitted remove them to put finish on. Then do the final polishing of metal parts, and send them out for bluing and color case. Then reassemble it all when you get stocks done, and finished parts back. This is the standard procedure for building up a gun.
    As for caliber, I think the .416 is way too much, and as others mentioned it doesn't matter what you load it for, it's what it might get loaded with later. Lots of great calibers that a Rolling Block will handle, (even BP like yours) but even a later smokeless #5 I would not put a .416 barrel on.
    I'd seriously consider the .40-50 Sharps Straight. A wonderful cartridge that will be very inexpensive to get started with, as it uses cheap .303 British or .30-40 Krag brass to make. Dies at C&H4D aren't too spendy at around $108 either. Since there's no factory ammo it will never get loaded with some hot factory load either. I have one presently that's an original with a 30" half octagon barrel, and I'm building another with a 34" full octagon barrel for longer distance shooting.

  13. #33
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    I would be really interested in reading the tests that a rolling block outlasted mausers and 1903 rifles in strength. I do agree that the rollers are way underestimated strength wise. They are a extremely strong setup but i never thought they would outlast a good bolt gun.

  14. #34
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOA View Post
    THerbert, I didn't notice in the parts a extractor. What type of extractor is with this action? And what have you been thinking about on a caliber for this project?

    This is a rotary extractor action. The circular part underneath the barrel stub with the vertical projection is the extractor.

    I started out thinking that his would make a nice gun in .416 Rigby, but the general consensus among the respondents here is that is not a good choice, for two reasons: one, that is a high pressure cartridge and the action is not strong enough to handle heavy loads. And two, because it is a long cartridge, and because of the geometry of the hammer and the chamber, loading and unloading may be difficult. So now, I'm rethinking caliber, or maybe scrapping the project for now.
    Tom Herbert
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    SASS #102029, Alias "Layte Comer"

  15. #35
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by marlinman93 View Post
    To start with I think your planned steps are out of order. The very last thing I'd do is apply color case and bluing. Working up stocks, and fitting/bluing the barrel on a freshly color cased receiver is a big mistake. Do all the metal work, and stock work, and then disassemble to have finish applied. I even shoot mine in the white prior to disassembling for finish, in case there's an issue that pops up.
    I'd start by polishing out the receiver parts and getting the barrel fitted. Then fit the stocks and once they're closely fitted remove them to put finish on. Then do the final polishing of metal parts, and send them out for bluing and color case. Then reassemble it all when you get stocks done, and finished parts back. This is the standard procedure for building up a gun.
    As for caliber, I think the .416 is way too much, and as others mentioned it doesn't matter what you load it for, it's what it might get loaded with later. Lots of great calibers that a Rolling Block will handle, (even BP like yours) but even a later smokeless #5 I would not put a .416 barrel on.
    I'd seriously consider the .40-50 Sharps Straight. A wonderful cartridge that will be very inexpensive to get started with, as it uses cheap .303 British or .30-40 Krag brass to make. Dies at C&H4D aren't too spendy at around $108 either. Since there's no factory ammo it will never get loaded with some hot factory load either. I have one presently that's an original with a 30" half octagon barrel, and I'm building another with a 34" full octagon barrel for longer distance shooting.
    Marlin, you're absolutely right, my procedure is out of order, I was thinking about that last night as I was oiling up the parts after getting them out of the derusting solution.

    I also determined that some of my parts are missing. This was a complete gun when I disassembled it, so they were all there initially, but I have the misfortune to be married to a wonderful woman with a flaw: she loves cats. I had all of the parts in a plastic box sitting on my bench, and although the lid was snapped on, when one of her children knocked the box off the bench, the top popped off and parts went everywhere. Apparently, I was not diligent enough when I picked it all up, so now I'm going to have to get down on my hands and knees in the room where I do all my gun work, and find the pivot pins, the trigger and breech block springs and a pin or two.

    I thought about going with .44-77, the original RB cartridge, until I looked at the prices for the dies and the brass. The only source for the dies is CH4D at $216, and pre-formed brass are over $3 each for most of them. I haven't looked to see what they can be formed from, if anything.

    Another caliber that I wanted a rifle in is .480 Ruger, to go with my Super Blackhawk. But once again, another high-pressure round if loaded with factory ammo @48,000 PSI. A #1 can be had for $13-1400 right now in that caliber, which might be a better choice. I'd prefer a lever gun in that caliber, anyway. I'm trying to get Henry to make a run of them. Rossi made a run of them in the early part of this century, but the last two I've seen on Gunbroker went for nearly $2000, for a gun that was originally less than $500.

    I really like big bores, for some silly reason. Besides my .50-70, I have a Handi in .500 S&W which has never seen a factory round, an original Trapdoor, and a Pedersoli Sharps in .45-70. I had a .577 Snider, but couldn't get it to shoot, but it was one of the cache guns, not an original English-made Enfield, so I let it go to a new home. Maybe one day I'll get another. Oh, yeah, and a brand-new Cimarron Uberti '76 Winchester in .50-95. As I said, I like big bores.

    The problem with black powder rounds is that they shoot best when loaded to capacity, in my experience. Loading them down, and filling the remainder of the case with wadding has never worked well for me. And large BP rounds with heavy bullets are unfriendly to my aging shoulder -- that's why I originally chose a smokeless round that could be loaded down and shot with cast bullets.

    I also don't generally collect multiple guns in the same caliber. I already have two .45-70s, and don't want another .50-70. Even a .45-70 can be painful to shoot with a heavy bullet and a case full of powder.

    I'm starting to think that my desires and reality are two parallel lines that are destined never to converge.
    Last edited by THerbert; 08-25-2018 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Additional text
    Tom Herbert
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  16. #36
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    THerbert.
    I have an idea of what your going through with the multitude of decisions, this caliber or that case, this might work, and then again it has this draw back, ya I kinda feel your pain. This is one of the thoughts I had when I ended up with the two swede rollers in the same caliber, I initially thought I would turn on of them into a 45 colt, and I think I will still do a roller in that caliber, just think it will be another roller. The two I have I plan on leaving as they are, so I will purchase another one and then do the change over to the Colt caliber. I like big bore guns too. Anyways, just a thought, lots of moulds, dies are cheap, brass can be found anywhere, and you can do both black or not as you chose.

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    I guess another question would be, is there a gunsmith around that specializes in single shot rifles in the old calibers? That is going to be likely to have reamers for the black powder Sharps and Remington calibers? A go-to guy?
    Tom Herbert
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    SASS #102029, Alias "Layte Comer"

  18. #38
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    THerbert, One thing you got to keep in mind is the big difference in how the leade and rifling is in a barrel that is made for shooting black powder. Not to say that a modern smokeless rifle barrel cannot shoot black, it's just that when black was all there was for powder the lands and grooves were wider and deeper to help deal with the fouling that black produces, and the modern barrels can get away with narrow and shallower rifling due to the cleaner burning of modern powders. If you are going to be ordering a barrel be sure to get with the mfg to go over what you are planning on so they may offer advice on the barrel design so it will work with your caliber/propellant plan.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    What the heck, take a stroll through Cartridges of the World's British sporting rifle section. I don't know that I'd pick any big bore smokeless cartridge but they had a pile of 50 cal. and down, BPE cartridges that would be a hoot to work with. Most of them are either available or easily formed from a readily available parent case. Pick the right one and reduced smokeless loads should be a slam dunk as well as full power BP loads when you wanna make some smoke and listen to the boom!
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  20. #40
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    THerbert,

    Ok, here's the last 2 cents worth I'll put in. Lots of good advice and thoughtful suggestions have been presented so I'll not try to confuse the issue more for you. In trying to have a large bore African shooter for your project I present this. As suggested above, and elsewhere in the posts, I looked through my Cartridges of the World for black powder pressure cartridges that were used in Africa. The main issue is how to do it on the cheap. This is what I would do. My choice would be to use the 10.3x60R Swiss cartridge. It is the same thing as the 450/400X2-3/8" BPE (black powder express), which was used quite a bit in Africa. What is nice is that you have a better chance of getting dies, moulds, and brass for that caliber without the automatic 200 dollar add on cause it is in the noted "African" caliber clan. Bertram makes the brass, and you should be able to get dies from CH4, maybe RCBS, or Huntington's. Get with Green Mountain Barrels in New Hampshire and find out what they offer in octagon barrels for black powder with a rate of twist for a 400 grain cast boolit. Barrel to go on your action, they'll need to know what your action is, find a good gunsmith cause he's going to have to machine it for your rotary extractor. Figure out what your doing for sights, tang, express or whatever. Guess thats how I would approach it. Most important is the smith, find one that's done this tyoe of work before and it's not their first rodeo. Good luck, hope to hear your progress on this project.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check