.308 win alloy questions: Hard cast vs Jacketed

[44Blam]

I remember talking to a guy about shooting .223. He said if you are shooting in a 1in8 barrel you need straight linotype hardness.

My 308 is a 1in10 twist and I am curious if I can shoot cast with straight linotype at jacketed speeds... Or can I do a 1:1 WW:Lino?

Currently, I am flush with lino, I got a killer deal on ebay for about $1/lb for letters... So, I stocked up...

I've got a nice mold: NOE 311-174-FN

It makes gas check'd boolits... I don't mind working up a load, but I am wondering if I can get 2500-2600 fps in lead boolits?

[John McCorkle]

Getting to that velocity and being accurate are two different things I am thinking...

Yes some do get to those velocities, talk to the guys over at arsenal molds ...they were telling me of some working their molds to those speeds with powder coating. I would imagine you'd need all the alloy toughness you can get. Maybe even look for a way to infuse copper alloy in their too.

Now getting accuracy is a different goal...it's like playing an electric guitar. If all the notes are right and tone of the guitar is good...when you plug in the amp and crank up the volume it just sounds better. But I never sounded so rough on guitar until it's turned way up and all those flaws in my playing are magnified.

Getting accuracy at lower velocities and pressure is a goal I chase for what seems like forever before I get it.... getting it at high velocities is much more complex as all those variables and 'flaws' get turned up and make accuracy tank.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.

[John McCorkle]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.

Mmm that's a good point, the longer your bbl length the better chance you have of getting to that velocity...and paper patching is a better chance at reaching those velocities. I think part of the reason is that paper patching is such a finicky thing that all the variables you may not have payed much attention to before (neck tension, culling any/all duds of your cast, concentricity of the loaded round, and tons of experimentation with powders and charge weight) you now have to keep a really close eye on to get good accuracy at velocity

Paper patching still works great at medium velocities too (comparatively...2200-2400) it just allows you to shoot very soft alloy for expansion in hunting application.

Paper patching is a white whale I've been chasing a while now...not overly devoted but excited about what I e seen so far. One day I'll prob shoot them exclusively for hunting but only when I can be certain I've got it down 100% pat. Looking for 2200-2400 fps with a 170 fn bullet of very soft/maleable alloy....it would be perfect on whitetail from my 06

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[John McCorkle]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Rcmaveric]

Yes adding some copper to an alloy will toughen the alloy. I havent seen any good write ups on the different ways though. Most the threads are long and require some notes and time to read through. No simple directions written in simple terms.

My understanding is babbits is the easiest. Then CSo4 method which requires some math and chemistry knowledge and notes.

Personally i am looking for accuracy. At around 2000 fps that is MOA. I am hunter and thats about the velocity i need to dope bullet drop out to 200 yards within my shooting ability. I try to acheive that by the simplest means possible. I wish i had the time to experiment and play but i am raising kids and working over time. So i am happy with 1200 fps, 1600 fps, and 2000 fps loads. They each have their place and purpose. For me i have no need for a 3000fps load. Though i want to try one day.

I have no real world experience. Only what i have read. So i hope you try it. I know what and were I would start with if I were to try.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[44Blam]

Yes adding some copper to an alloy will toughen the alloy. I havent seen any good write ups on the different ways though. Most the threads are long and require some notes and time to read through. No simple directions written in simple terms.

My understanding is babbits is the easiest. Then CSo4 method which requires some math and chemistry knowledge and notes.

Personally i am looking for accuracy. At around 2000 fps that is MOA. I am hunter and thats about the velocity i need to dope bullet drop out to 200 yards within my shooting ability. I try to acheive that by the simplest means possible. I wish i had the time to experiment and play but i am raising kids and working over time. So i am happy with 1200 fps, 1600 fps, and 2000 fps loads. They each have their place and purpose. For me i have no need for a 3000fps load. Though i want to try one day.

I have no real world experience. Only what i have read. So i hope you try it. I know what and were I would start with if I were to try.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I think I'll start at 1500 or so and work up... I can see now me pilfering the speaker cables for hard boolits and my wife barging into the garage... *** is wrong with the TV?!?

[Kraschenbirn]

I'm pushing an Arsenal 309-188GC (see link below) cast from straight Lyman #2 and PC'd with Smoke's Clear at close to 2100 fps and getting consistent 2 MOA (or better). Rifle is a Savage M10 with 24" fluted barrel that will hold sub-MOA with my clones of M118LR so I'm not completely satisfied and still tinkering/fine tuning. Btw, I really like this boolit design but it's kind of a PITA to work with...two-step resizing: first to seat the GC and size the drive band and, then, size the nose in a separate operation.

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?pro...it=99999999999

Bill

[GregLaROCHE]

I'm pushing an Arsenal 309-188GC (see link below) cast from straight Lyman #2 and PC'd with Smoke's Clear at close to 2100 fps and getting consistent 2 MOA (or better). Rifle is a Savage M10 with 24" fluted barrel that will hold sub-MOA with my clones of M118LR so I'm not completely satisfied and still tinkering/fine tuning. Btw, I really like this boolit design but it's kind of a PITA to work with...two-step resizing: first to seat the GC and size the drive band and, then, size the nose in a separate operation.

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?pro...it=99999999999

Bill

Why are you nose sizing? To reduce overall length or something else?
Thanks

[MT Gianni]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

Yes they have and were shouted down so hard they left the forum. It didn't change their results.

[Kraschenbirn]

Why are you nose sizing? To reduce overall length or something else?
Thanks

Two reasons:

(1) My M10 has a very tight bore...like .300/.3075...and a very short throat. Chamber appears to have been cut for G.I. M118s and bolt will not close on anything with over .301 nose diameter without seating boolit with GC well below the case neck. As an example, bolt will not close on RCBS 165SILs, sized .310 and seated to chamber .060 off the rifling in my McGowan-barreled M700.

(2) Boolit is a true 'bore-rider' and, seated as designed, requires a max. .301 dia. for the portion of the nose extending into the rifling.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

Numerous members here have used babbitt to harden bullets. Others add copper in other ways. This thread may provide some information;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-this-further

I had/have babbitt ingots (thanks to badgerredd) and have mixed several different alloy percentages with the babbitt and tested them. They can give a bit better performance as to holding accuracy to a bit higher velocity in some faster twist barrels. Adding to much Cu via babbitt presents problems of its own. I was not able to get any real benefit accuracy wise, especially past 100 yards, out of the quadra alloy over a ternary alloy such as #2 alloy or linotype when pushing to higher velocity.

Given a 30 caliber ternary alloyed cast bullet can be shot at 2700 - 2900+ fps and hold moa accuracy at 600 yards with 14 & 16" twist rifles with 48 - 50,000 psi (actually measured, not guessed at) and the same can't be done with 10 or 12" twists at the same level of psi the problem is not one of the alloy holding up to the psi.

[waco]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.

Just because you can’t do it Larry doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I’ve shown this before but I’ll show it again. 30XCB bullet cast from 90/6/4 (Pb,Sb,Sn) water dropped 18bhn
Loaded in .308 Win. In a 1:10 twist factory 22” barrel at 2489fps. 10 shots at 100 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

waco

Let's look at the OPs question;

My 308 is a 1in10 twist and I am curious if I can shoot cast with straight linotype at jacketed speeds...I am wondering if I can get 2500-2600 fps in lead boolits?

A 308W, including yours, shoots jacketed 165 gr bullets out of 22" barrels with 10" twists at 2700+ fps.

You proved, in your 500 yard shooting video, that your rifle and load holds, maybe 4 -5 moa with that load or a similar one. If you'd pay attention to the 2 fliers which you failed to count in that group you might understand why they are fliers. They are over the RPM threshold. Those 3 wider shots, in the 8 shot group you measured, are probably over the RPM threshold also. That's why your load wouldn't hold better that 4 moa at 500 yards. About 50% of the bullets went over the RPM threshold and flew off at a tangent to the line of flight, that could be clearly seen watching the bullet traces. The group you post also appears to have about 50% over the RPM threshold. Those fliers are telling you the truth even if you don't believe me. If you'd drop back to 2300 - 2350 fps to keep your bullets under the RPM Threshold your load might hold accuracy to 500 yards.

However, 2300 fps to your stated 2489 fps is still not "jacketed bullet velocities" for the 308W with 165 gr bullets or at 2500 to 2600 fps which is what the OP asked about.

I showed you, as I was actually trying to help you improve your long range accuracy, how I already was shooting less than 2 moa at 500 yards with a similar load using the 30 XCB, I posted the targets with the bullet holes in them. I also showed, by posting the groups, how I was shooting close to MOA at 600 yards with the same 30 XCB at 2900 fps.

I've also shot numerous 10 shot moa groups, or very close to it, at 2400 - 2500+ fps at 100 yards using a 10" twist. However, those loads would not maintain linear expansion of the group just as yours did not, i.e. they do not maintain accuracy. But as also shown, those same loads in a 12" twist do hold liner group expansion as the range increases and thus, do maintain accuracy. I've also posted on this forum numerous 10 shot groups shot at 2600 - 2700+ fps with the 30 XCB and a Lyman 311466 using a 14" twist .308W which hold close to moa accuracy at least to 500 yards.

As I stated to the OP; " 2500 - 2600 fps [the velocity range the OP asked about] with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy" .....and it isn't.

[waco]

I love how you can’t stand to be proven wrong. The pic of the 10 shot group above is a different load altogether from the one I used in my video.
If 2489fps isn’t close enough for you to being 2500fps as per the op’s request, well. I don’t know what to tell you.
It can be done. It has been done. I encourage others to try. Don’t let people that can’t do it tell you that you can’t.
Proof is in the pudding.

[waco]

And by they way. No body mentioned distance. You’re calling me out on my 500 yard video?
Let’s see your distance video Larry.
The OP wants to know if he can shoot cast in .308 at 2500fps. With a 10 twist barrel. The answer is yes. You can. Period.

[Larry Gibson]

waco

With my own 10" twist 308W I thought this 2434 fps load would be good. Several times it held around 1.5 - 1.6 moa at 100 yards. However, when tested at 200 and 300 yards those fliers out of the group would not hold 4 - 5 moa. Here is the pressure/velocity test. I trace the bullet holes onto the printout for record keeping.

Attachment 226093

Dropping the charge 2 gr which lowered the velocity to 2313 fps and resulted in linear expansion of the groups at 200 and 300 yards. That's even with pushing the RPM up to 166,000+. However, at 500 yards the increased adverse affect from that higher RPM was telling as the group was opening to 2 moa +/-. Here is the pressure/velocity test of that load.

Attachment 226092

Thus we see that even though the group (counting all 10 shot) may appear to be "accurate" at 100 yards it really may not be accurate at longer range. I suppose though if one just shot only out to 100 yards then that level of accuracy may be sufficient. None the less it still isn't the 2500 - 2600 fps the OP asked for.

This is the load I used in the 500 yard test you requested I do. This load at a tudge higher velocity held 2 moa 10 shot group at the 500 yard range. What is interesting is this load also had 3 fliers out of the group at 500 yards (the 2 shots that hit the right edge of the target frame and one high left. Obviously those 3 shots were over the RPM Threshold.

Attachment 226094

[44Blam]

It looks like I have a quest. Tomorrow or Sunday I will go out to the range, break in my barrel, sight in my scope and iron sights, adjust the gas and etc.
I bought a couple boxes of Federal ammo, so it should give me a good idea of what the gun does with factory rounds. I think I might try to pick up a cheap chrono...

It seems like I should buy a little notebook for this adventure as it appears that it will be a bit of a windy road to shooting cast boolits with this gun - especially at higher velocities.

In the near term, I don't have anywhere near me that I can shoot beyond 100 yards. And I don't particularly like shooting from a rest. I like to stand and send... So my current goal is "good" accuracy which would be a group at 1" or so at 100 yards. I have done that with a little .223 I have that has a 1-7x scope shooting jacketed hand loads. So the start is not too much of a reach. I think I'll start a new thread on the quest. Assuming I can get past level 1: shoot 1 MOA groups with standard factory rounds...

[Tom W.]

I know that the Savage model 12 I had wouldn't shoot groups with cast at jacketed speeds. Nice patterns resembling a shotgun was more like it. With jacketed bullets I would hit targets out to 1000 yards, and anything 600 yards or closer
was easy. I gave up trying to speed up cast in that rifle.

A lot of what I shot was coww with nickel Babbitt added. That stuff is like 98% tin with some copper mixed in, no lead at all. OSHA wouldn't allow any. Cast pure it made some pretty but somewhat light boolits.

[popper]

Yes, you can and you don't need lino to do it. Add the Cu, lose the tin, WD. 4-5% Sb - 1/2%Cu heat treat from AR10 carbine does near MOA @ 200 from a makeshift bench. Approx. the same boolit you have, RNFPGC. I only did 3 shots, buddy was ranging it in and did ~ 10. Never shot the LR308 before but did pretty good. ~6" drop compared to Win hog razer round. Slower twist helps but it can be done in 1:10. I've chronied the load @ 2400+ in 16" and 2700+ in 24" upper.