Another Newbie Leading Horror Story

[35remington]

It takes around sixteen inches of newsprint to stop lead roundnose similar to ball in the .45 ACP at velocities around 820-850 fps. SWC's usually penetrate a bit less. Compacting the wet books tightly will reduce penetration an inch or two.

A comment: the Lee TL 230 RN, or any of their tumble lube bullets for that matter, show pretty severe gascutting above 4.0 grains of Clays when cast hard. A combination of not enough lube (a lube groove full of soft lube would be more forgiving), and bullets too hard to bump up. Large lube groove SWC's of the H&G pattern show much less gascutting even when hard cast.

This from a 1911.

Now, I am not down on LLA; it is just less forgiving sometimes that a bullet with deeper lube grooves and a good soft lube. Even the hard lubes will shoot clean in the HG pattern 200's with hard bullets due to the wide and large lube groove, IMO.

With a good barrel and proper lead mixture the Lee TL designs will work fine with LLA in .45 ACP, but it is a bit smoky. If that matters to you.

[HeavyMetal]

Looks like you've gotten a ton of good advice here.

With 27,000 rounds of ball ammo through this barrel I can't help but think it's as smooth as it's gonna get! As far as being worn out? Check your group sizes!

If they are in line with what you were getting with the ball ammo look for problems elsewhere!

Follow up on the die measurements for sure! Also think about using the same load with a good boolit such as the H&G 68 or a copy. If the leading goes away we can suspect the little groves on the tumble lube boolit aren't working with this particular load.

I'm going to sugget you do what all good drag racers do: make one change and test the load! If it's better keep that change, if not go back to the previous load!

Then change something else and test the load!

I will again go out on a limb and say that the boolit change suggested might just be the ticket for a short term solution! This will also head you in the right direction if correct!

[anachronism]

The most common 45 ACP problem I've found is too much taper crimp. When you crimp a cast bullet load, you can swage your bullet down in the case without realizing it. Autoloaders are the worst in this regard because of the taper crimp that's commonly used.

[MtGun44]

He said he was using NO crimp. I would put the failures to close down to
no taper crimp. In 25+ yrs of loading for 1911s and assisting newbies in our
IPSC club with loading reliable .45ACP ammo, the lack of taper crimp has been
the most common cause of feeding problems with H&G 68 type 200 swcs and
LRN 230s.

My Kimber Custom (Series One) has seen almost zero jacketed and has run
around 30,000 rds of 200 SWCs at 950 fps. Near zero leading. Needs cleaning
about every 2000 rds or so, little bore scrubbing required.

Reverse taper on the barrel is very weird and may be the whole deal here.
Bullet is sized to .452 at the throat, no matter what size it started at, then
hits the .454 portion - gas leakage, cutting and leading would seem very
likely. I tend to think this is an improperly manufactured barrel that may
not be suitable for lead bullets due to the reverse taper.

Bill

[ironmike17]

I loaded three boolits "as cast" and three boolits sized .452 and then pulled them down and measured them. The average diameter of the "as cast" boolits was .4528 with a spread of .452 to .454. After loading, the average diameter of the pulled boolits was .4503 with a spread of .450 to .452. The average diameter of the sized boolits was "spot on" at .452 with no spread. After loading, the average diameter of the pulled boolits was .450 with a spread of .449 to .452. Looks like the loaded boolits are .002 undersize. Several folks suggested that I might be under-sizing the boolits when I crimp. Looks like I am. I ordered a Lee factory crimp die tonight.

[windrider919]

Looking at your last post I think it is NOT the crimp but as others have noted, probably the expander ball. I have a 1973 colt series 70 that has shot over many thousands of lead bullets. I had the same problem as you way back then. The solution was a 'larger expander ball for lead bullets' so the case tension was less and hence did not size the bullets down during loading. I shoot more cast bullet rifle today but the same problem happens in rifles too. The dies size the brass for J-bullets very tightly, this is enough squeeze to size down the [lead] bullet as it enters the case. And undersize lead bullets lead, no matter what alloy. I did get better feeding and accuracy with a taper crimp die but I only use it to remove the case mouth bell, not 'taper the whole catrridge because then it would be down sizing the bullet.

Mike a sized case wall thickness then insert a bullet WITHOUT crimping and measure the OD. If the bullet is OK the OD will be bullet OD plus two wall thicknesses. If the bullet has been sized then it will measure under that number. That also tells you how much larger an expander ball you need to have made. I put a .457 ball in the drill press and sanded it down to solve my leading problem. Improved the accuracy too!

[straight-shooter]

I ordered a Lee factory crimp die tonight.

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.

[Bob Jones]

I can't offer a solution, just hope. I have shot many, many 1,000's of the Lee 230 grain round nose, lubed with Lee Alox, 3.9 grains of Clays, through my 1911's, including a Kimber ProCarry. Zero leading, the cleanest shooting lead bullets I've ever used. I can shoot 300 rounds in an afternoon and the barrel is clean and shiny.

If you're using straight Clays and not one of the variants, you're way over the load you should be using. Try 3.8-3.9 and see how it works. Also you said you weren't letting the lube dry. Don't know if that would do it but mine are always good and dry before use.

[38-55]

Ironmike,
Try going down with your powder charge.. Just out of curiosity when was the last time you changed your recoil spring? What weight is it ? Not that this would have any bearing on your leading problem but I'm just curious for my own edification.
This all may be just your barrel telling you it doesn't like clays.. Not being a smart ass or anything but some barrels just don't like certain bullet/lube/powder combinations..
Stay safe
Calvin

[ironmike17]

I run 16-pound (factory standard) recoil springs. I use Wolff chrome silicon recoil springs. Mike

[sniper7369]

I think you may want to experiment with your powder a bit. My 1911 leads like crazy with 200gr LSWC cast from straight WW alloy from a LEE mold with Lyman Orange Magic lube, sized to .452, over 6.0gr of Bullseye. However that same bullet over 6.0gr of Unique or 5.5gr of W231 doesn't lead at all.
I taper crimp to .470 at the case mouth with a COAL of 1.250, using mixed brass and Winchester large pistol primers. The gun has at least 25,000 rds through it and will hold groups you can cover with the mouth of a coffee mug at 25yds with the 231 and Unique loads.

[45-70 shoooter]

what are the options if your expander is to small and you are sizing the bullet down in the case

[jhrosier]

what are the options if your expander is to small and you are sizing the bullet down in the case

A Lyman "M" die will open the neck to perfection.
If you are using non-standard sized boolits, you may need a custom expander plug for it, a trivial job for anyone with access to a lathe.

Jack

[JDFuchs]

Ive had good luck with water droped .452 sized WW, 220g. With 4 to 4.5g unique. It cleaned out some of the leading form the load before that.

[Bass Ackward]

You could have a ton of issues. But your real problem is bullet hardness and the reverse taper bore.

In the 45, your pressure drops to 10,000 psi after 1" of bullet travel. To obturate ACWW, you need 17,000 psi. Irregardless of how perfect everything is or isn't when you start out, you are going to lead, and continue to lead. It is virtually hopeless. Very simply, you are losing seal.

You would be farther ahead to shoot pure lead. Pure lead will continue to obturate down to @ 7000 psi. It definitely won't be accurate because it is eventually going to lose it's grip on the rifling, but it would lead less. And it would be easier to clean out again.

In the end, you really need a new barrel.

[IcerUSA]

What does your fired cases inside dia. come out at ? What is the inside dia. after sizing ? Might have to back out your sizing die a little to get the right dia. so as not to deform the boolits .
Just a thought .

Keith

[Alex Hamilton]

I have put 27,000 rounds of FMJ through the tube of my Kimber 1911 over the last ten years. Went to lead to save money. Purchased a Lee 230 gr. LRN mold with micro bands for tumble lubing, a Lee pot and Alox. Figured out how to cast good boolits and shot 100 rounds over 4.8 grains of Clays. Got the worst leading I ever saw. Did the following, shooting 100 rounds at a time: bought a sizer in .452, stopped crimping, went to Unique 5.8 grains, then Unique 5.5 grains, and heat treated 100 rounds. After every set of 100 rounds, I had terrible leading. After each 100 rounds, I cleaned the barrel squeaky clean. I figured it must be the barrel with the high round count of FMJ, so I slugged it. The major diameter at the breech is .452 and the major diameter at the muzzle is .454. The minor diameter at the breech is .445 and the minor diameter at the muzzle is out of round, and measures .445 to .457. The chamber at the base of the cartridge is out of round and measures .483 to .485. The chamber at the riflings is .475. Eureka! Bad barrel! Just to make sure, I cleaned the barrel on my newer .45 and put 100 rounds through it, figuring that the newer barrel with only about 1,000 rounds of FMJ through it would shoot clean. These 100 rounds were sized to .452, tumble lubed with liquid Alox and seated to OAL of 1.265 with no crimp. It leaded almost as badly as the first barrel. I am obviously making some rookie mistake and no one at my club has a clue. Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Ironmike,
Poor bullet fit is the principal cause of leading and in particular gas cutting caused by the bulelts being too small for the bore. Basically, high pressure gas rips small particles of lead off the sides of the bullet and deposits them in the bore if front of the bullet. This small quantity of lead is then "ironed" into the bore as the bullet passes over it. The leading develops quickly even if the bullet is .001" smaller than the bore.

The cure is to slug the bore and size the bullets .001" over groove size, but it is better to size them the same size as the throat - the diameter immediately in front of the chamber mouth. That is not always possible, especially in auto handguns.

As your barrel is larger at the muzzle, to be absolutely frank, I doubt that you will ever get good accuracy with lead bullets, because whatever size they are they will be smaller than the groove as they travel down the barrel.

After 27,000 of FMJ ammunition the barrel of your Kimber must be at the end of its life, so why not replace it?

I hope this helps,

Alex

[gl1800]

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.

Same problem I had with my Kimber and G23. Stopped using the FCD and my leading problems went away.

Cheers,
Richard

[Alex Hamilton]

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.

WARNING! Brass springs back a little after sizing, but lead does not, so using a Factory Crimp Die by Lee actually reduces the neck tension and can cause erratic ignition and inaccuracy.

They work well on HBWC, which are seated deep in cases and supported by the inner taper at the bottom and held in case by a slight roll crimp on the top. This method is actually used to load factory ammunition using HBWCs. But for that to work on cases that have been reloaded many times, you have to trim them to ensure that the case mouths are square, otherwise the crimp will be greater on the "longer" side and accuracy will not be good.

Alex

[MtGun44]

All metals spring back when loaded and then unloaded.

Any metal that is stressed will flex linearly (basically linear means that
if you apply 10 lbs load it will deflect twice as much as with 5 lbs load) up until
it reaches it's yield point. Think about bending a piece of coat hanger wire.
I bends and springs back, bend it more (push harder) and eventually it will
spring back but SOME of the bending will be permanent (beyond yield point).
Past yield you get non-linear deflection - increase the load by 50% and get
more than 50% deflection.

Brass, lead, copper and all metals will follow this same behavior, just with
different stress levels to reach their yield stress.

Brass has a higher yield stress than lead alloy, so will spring back more, but
the lead alloy will still spring back - just not very much because the yield
stress of soft lead alloys is reached sooner (lower stress).

Your basic point that sizing the case and boolit in place can wind up with the
brass springing back more than the lead and reducing neck tension is
correct, but the lead does spring back - just likely less than the brass.

Bill