The Best Handgun Caliber - A Real World Study

[jj850]

anyone know how this is different from the Marshall and Sanow research. As I remember it was mostly police shootings with handguns. it became controversial for data analysis, selection bias and such. As I remember but that was a long time ago.

[Traffer]

This serves to remind me that scientific studies are for those who wish to manipulate data. No real practicality here. Nothing you can't figure out by shooting a few times.

[Petrol & Powder]

anyone know how this is different from the Marshall and Sanow research. As I remember it was mostly police shootings with handguns. it became controversial for data analysis, selection bias and such. As I remember but that was a long time ago.

I'm not sure it is different than the Marshall and Sanow study, in fact, it may even contain some of the same data. Hard to say based on a video clip. I'd like to see the entire study and the raw data.

[glockfan]

looking at this '''study'' , carrying my G23 makes somehow more sens to me because the 1 shot stop factor . it is conforting to know that a ''hit anywhere ''' with the 40 round might be enough to stop a motivated attacker.

i however still a believer that the best defence gun is the one you carry assuming the carrier proefficiency is part of the equation.

[bedbugbilly]

Way too many charts and figures to digest this early in the morning . . . obviously time for another cup of coffee.

[Thundarstick]

I've worked in the medical field for over 35 years, and helped on a fair share of autopsies where bullet damage was the cause of death, shootings, suicides, and negligent discharges. You wouldn't believe how many are from the lowly 22LR! There's just more of them out here in the country, but they usually die at the hospital or in route. Blood loss leading to blood pressure loss is what kills, unless you get lucky and hit the CNS. Years ago there was a study done on pigs where they where shot with just about every defensive caliber and bullet of the day (early 80s) and it was concluded that even the quickest killing chest cavity shots allowed at least 7 seconds before black out. The bigger the hole, or more holes you can make(shotgun) the quicker blackout happens. It was also discovered that head shots where lights out even with the lowly 22LR and 25ACP! So it stands to reason that the larger rounds make bigger holes, fragmented rounds make more holes, that leads to faster black out. The one shot stop thing is bunk all the way around (notice they don't say, one shot kill) because it doesn't take into account the determination of the assailant, as many flee at the sight of an armed defender.
So I'm going to have to agree with the ones who say what you have in your hand, shoot well, and are proficient with is more a factor than caliber. Do I carry a 22LR? No, but if I had to use one in defence, I'm going to try my best to do a mag dump into you! Then again, I train to double tap, so your probably going to catch two no matter what I'm shooting.

Any way, I see lots of SKEWING in this whole thing. This is long, but very educational.

https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

[KenH]

looking at this '''study'' , carrying my G23 makes somehow more sens to me because the 1 shot stop factor . it is conforting to know that a ''hit anywhere ''' with the 40 round might be enough to stop a motivated attacker.

Well, based on the "study" and the 1-shot stops in 2nd graph, it looks the .32 ACP has the best record at 72% of the time vs the 44 mag at only 53% of the time on "head/torso" One Shot Incapacitations.

3rd graph has the 1 shot hit anyway info and there the 44 mag was effective only 13% of the time compared to the little pipsqueak .380 ACP at 44%.

Now the 4th graph shows failures, and there the .32 ACP ranks high at 40% of time it fails. I have a hard time with those numbers.

Again, I ask does any of this make sense?

[Rcmaveric]

This study seams to reiterate the moot points of these debates. Any gun is better than none.

I do have some after thoughts: Didn't the FBI do a study on this? Only a hit in the central nervous system guarantees a one hit threat removal. Any other hit and your waiting on exsanguination. Bones are as hard as steel. So if your round cant punch through the bones it will deflect. Why do we not apply the same principles of hunting ammo to our self defense guns?

[rking22]

Data points on the 44mag are very few, 32 as well I believe. That somewhat invalidates the data on those 2.
What it shows ,to me anyway, is that any of the typical sd rounds,380 to 45acp, have very similar trsults in actual shootings. The 22 lr is deadly, but also likely to fail to stop, statistically. Same with the 25 and 32. All the tylicsl rounds show very similar effects and failure rates, and note, even the shotgun and rifle require more than 1 hit for a stop. Wheather it's 1.1 or 1.9 rounds you still need that 2nd hit , statistically.
I read it that you should pick a standard caliber that you can handle and will carry, there is no "silver bullet" and even the mighty 45acp and 12 ga dont always yield a stop! Relying on the One shot stop non sense to select your carry is a bad idea, and the data here supports that.
I suspect Grant Cunningham's blog has more about the actual study methodology.

[popper]

IIRC from many years ago (like 50) 22 (even 22short) was most devastating as were the 25 & 32. Of course they were the most popular concealed gun cals. It was also claimed that they 'bounced around' inside to cause major damage. At that time, drunks and crooks were the 'target'. Now with the opioid crisis, scenario changes a bit and we get the one shot stop requirement. 22, 380 & 9 are most popular now, primarily for concealment and recoil. Obviously, CNS is a stopper, bone break is a slow em down (bones are NOT made of steel). Bleed out (pain) work for perp that is going to flee (hunters know this). Actually in my LTC class, head shots were counted as a miss. We changed the 223 twist from 12-14 to 5-7 to increase the gyro energy so it would bounce around in the target more and incapacitate the enemy. IMHO we are finding that it takes multiple hits on drugged enemy - so the game changes to 458 SOCOM? The study is (I must assume) close range SD (or at least what WE are concerned about) so what you can handle and produce a 'proper' wound without over penetration ( commercial SD ammo manufacturers are concerned about this) is best. Yes, a 12 or 20 with #4 does the job but is real messy. The 'coach' scatter gun was for a very specific use, the bandits would be shooting 4-50 cal pistol from horseback at distance so would be more of a scare than threat. Cowboy movies are fun to watch but semi-ridiculous.
Yea, just read a report that 165gr 40SW is more effective then 180 gr. Actually does make sense.

[glockfan]

I've worked in the medical field for over 35 years, and helped on a fair share of autopsies where bullet damage was the cause of death, shootings, suicides, and negligent discharges. You wouldn't believe how many are from the lowly 22LR! There's just more of them out here in the country, but they usually die at the hospital or in route. Blood loss leading to blood pressure loss is what kills, unless you get lucky and hit the CNS. Years ago there was a study done on pigs where they where shot with just about every defensive caliber and bullet of the day (early 80s) and it was concluded that even the quickest killing chest cavity shots allowed at least 7 seconds before black out. The bigger the hole, or more holes you can make(shotgun) the quicker blackout happens. It was also discovered that head shots where lights out even with the lowly 22LR and 25ACP! So it stands to reason that the larger rounds make bigger holes, fragmented rounds make more holes, that leads to faster black out. The one shot stop thing is bunk all the way around (notice they don't say, one shot kill) because it doesn't take into account the determination of the assailant, as many flee at the sight of an armed defender.
So I'm going to have to agree with the ones who say what you have in your hand, shoot well, and are proficient with is more a factor than caliber. Do I carry a 22LR? No, but if I had to use one in defence, I'm going to try my best to do a mag dump into you! Then again, I train to double tap, so your probably going to catch two no matter what I'm shooting.

Any way, I see lots of SKEWING in this whole thing. This is long, but very educational.

https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

a knife combat expert i've took some course with explained that numerous small cuts are more desirable that trying your luck with a lucky stab seeking deep penetration in whatever organs.

he explained that many small cuts drives to the same loss of blood pressure than a large deep wounds. in fact,he was keen to explain that , small cuts are easy to perform with savant arms sweeps whereas the ''lucky''' stab is likely to never happens since both belligerents are in constant motions ; that, unless one has a huge strenght advantage over his opponent, immobilizing the opponent for a deep penetration isn't going to happens.

i figure it must be appliable when talking about mouse rounds used as defence guns.

[glockfan]

Well, based on the "study" and the 1-shot stops in 2nd graph, it looks the .32 ACP has the best record at 72% of the time vs the 44 mag at only 53% of the time on "head/torso" One Shot Incapacitations.

3rd graph has the 1 shot hit anyway info and there the 44 mag was effective only 13% of the time compared to the little pipsqueak .380 ACP at 44%.

Now the 4th graph shows failures, and there the .32 ACP ranks high at 40% of time it fails. I have a hard time with those numbers.

Again, I ask does any of this make sense?

sorry,was reffering to this graph....

[goste]

If the .32. has a "fail rate" of 40 %....., and a "one stop shot" of 72%, I would question if this include suicide data, which would skew results somewhat .. My .002

[shdwlkr]

curious what was the skill level of the those who used the firearm? I have always been under the impression that a bigger hole in the body tends to make the receiver less willing to want a second or third hole in the body. As has been said any pistol is better than none in the fight for your life. If the 45acp is such a **** caliber why do so many of our special forces still carry them? or have they given up on the old 45acp? One thing that is also missing is how many total shots were fired to obtain how many hits, seems I remember someplace the some LEO or FBI shoot out there were a whole lot of bullets fired with few hits. I personally would not feel under protected with any pistol if it was what I had when I needed one, not saying it would do me the best but it would at least provide me with some protection. Where solids or hollow points used, distance to target, just so many unanswered questions

[500Linebaughbuck]

hoo hum........

i'll just stay with 44 spl or the 45acp.

[lefty o]

what i see from this "study", is pretty much what ive always said. hand guns are underpowered , and they are there to help you get to a rifle.

[RichardB]

Look up Dr. Martin Fackler. His research is the best out there. He was the prime instructor with the most accurate info at our state's LEO Firearm's Instructors Seminars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler
http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=4043

RichardB

[FISH4BUGS]

SHOT PLACEMENT....the only thing that matters

[Traffer]

a knife combat expert i've took some course with explained that numerous small cuts are more desirable that trying your luck with a lucky stab seeking deep penetration in whatever organs.

he explained that many small cuts drives to the same loss of blood pressure than a large deep wounds. in fact,he was keen to explain that , small cuts are easy to perform with savant arms sweeps whereas the ''lucky''' stab is likely to never happens since both belligerents are in constant motions ; that, unless one has a huge strenght advantage over his opponent, immobilizing the opponent for a deep penetration isn't going to happens.

i figure it must be appliable when talking about mouse rounds used as defence guns.

I found this to be more useful info than the entire study in the original post.

[popper]

He sort of discounts the tumbling of the M16 bullet in the body, calling it fragmentation. Not exactly the same. The fast twist/HV provides a lot of rotational energy that causes gyro procession ( change in bullet direction AND orientation - which creates an amazing wound channel (long for caliber). IMHO the article is pretty good, Only a shotgun is VERY reliable, the rest are about the same but bigger usually means more PAIN so the shooter and shot physio are to be considered.