Use of fillers in 45/70 loads

[Yooper003]

I would like to see more on using fillers in loading for the 45/70. I see information that says never use them as it can cause ringing of chamber and other problems, other people say they use fillers all the time with powders like unique & red dot. I did try the 1/4 sheet of tp one time, didn't know whether to push it down to the powder, pack it, or just leave it just under the boolit. Didn't see any difference, but I was so nervous shooting that could have affected it.

[sharps4590]

I've never used a filler in the 45-70 but I've never tried reduced loads in that cartridge. I do use fillers in several other cartridges and several years ago I went with open cell foam as my filler of choice. Always, when using Unique, my most used powder, the numbers across the screens and accuracy have improved considerably. The same can be said for most other powders I've used with fillers.

[RedlegEd]

Hi. This has been discussed a few times in different threads, not only for the .45-70, but other rifle cartridges as well. Here is a good thread to start. Hope it helps. Ed

The-proper-use-of-fillers

[JSnover]

I've used fillers for target loads but my hunting loads were heavy enough that they didn't need it.

[T-Bird]

I use Dacron over IMR 4198 with a 330 hp in 45/70 . I’ve used it for years, my velocity spread is smaller with it than without. I’m ashamed to admit that I never compared accuracy with and w/o

[Yooper003]

I guess I don't understand, you say you never use fillers in 45/70 & never used reduced loads in this cartridge, but you say Unique is your most used powder? So you don't use Unique in 45/70? If you use Unique in this cartridge there is a lot of space even if max load.

[country gent]

First there is a difference between fillers and wads. Fillers like cream of wheat, grex, dacron, kapok and other granulated materials are used and take all the airspace in the case to the base of the bullet, usually making a lightly compressed load. weight of the bullet filler and compression need to be accounted for when starting the load process. Wads like the toilet paper, Styrofoam, ldpe, cork, gasket materials, card board and the likes hold powder in place but leave airspace in the case between wad and bullet. It is thought that the airspace can cause ringing when the wad slams into the heavy bullet before it can start moving. A wad is used in Black Powder loads to protect the base of the bullet but there is no airspace in these loads. Some use several wads in these loads a heavy wad to protect bullet and help seal bore then 1-2 thin light wads to insure release of the wads.

In smokeless loads the wads are pushed in to sit on the powder and hold it in place at the case head leaving air space between bullet and wad. Toilet paper pushed in with a dowel and left to fill the case ( not packed down on the powder in a wad) may be okay as it is somewhat filling the case. Dacron and Kapock can be listed as both since they are fluffed up to fill the case space when inserted. A 1/2-3/4 grn of dacron or kapock goes a long ways when it fluffs up. I have seen wads shift in the case thru handling and transportation also.

Do not just add a wad or filler to an existing load, start low and work back up since the addition of the material ( less air space, added weight, change in resistance and or ignition changes) will affect pressures. Be safe and work back up. Dacron or Kapock can be measured by weight or rolled in a tube and cut by length volumne. A 1/2 id tube with it rolled in and xx length is 1/2 grn of material then fluff this up and insert into case. Also xx square of material will consistently weight close to the same.

DAcron fibers kapock seem to be consumed in firing. wads fillers are expelled from the muzzle. I have seen the 1/4 sheet of toilet paper when fired.

[white eagle]

I never use filler in a 45-70 case to big
the only filler I use is gun powder
if you are looking for lighter loads try black powder

[dale2242]

I use a fluffy filler of 1 gr. dacron with 30 gr. IMR4198 and a 405 gr. boolit in my trapdoor.
I`ve never had a problem. Note, I said a fluffy filler not compacted....dale

[500Linebaughbuck]

i use dacron in my 444 marlin, 300gr saeco fn with 25.0gr of 2400. i'm going to use dacron in my 45-70 and 405gr fn with 2400.

[MT Chambers]

Use Trail Boss and it fills case almost using 12 grains or so, don't muck around with small amounts of fast pistol powder, safety first.

[Edward]

I would like to see more on using fillers in loading for the 45/70. I see information that says never use them as it can cause ringing of chamber and other problems, other people say they use fillers all the time with powders like unique & red dot. I did try the 1/4 sheet of tp one time, didn't know whether to push it down to the powder, pack it, or just leave it just under the boolit. Didn't see any difference, but I was so nervous shooting that could have affected it.

I use dacron in my 45/70 loads with 2400 powder (my favorite load ) the final word on filler comes from Larry Gibson ,see the sticky on this site/Ed

[Larry Gibson]

To use or not to use a filler in the 45-70 depends. It depend as it does with most other cartridges with cast bullets but also because the 45-70 can be loaded to 4 different levels with cast bullets. What applies within the parameters of one level may not apply within another level.

For level 1 loads (trapdoor level) and level 2 loads (M1886 and Marlin lever actions) I prefer to use a fast burning powder such as Bullseye w/o any filler for use with 200 to 300 gr cast bullets for velocities upwards of 1050 fps. Accuracy is excellent. I was just recently shooting such a load (275 gr Rapine 460250 over 8 gr Bullseye) out of my H&R OM at 700 yards. It was holding up exceedingly well. However, for faster loads with the slightly heavier RCBS 45-325-FN-U I use 12 gr of Unique with a 1 1/2 gr Dacron filler for 1250 fps. I have also used 12.5 gr Unique with the Dacron filler under the Lee 457-340-F for 1200 fps with very good results.

With the GC'd RCBS 45-300-FN I prefer to use 2400, 4227 or 4198 with a Dacron filler pushing velocities to 1800 fps out of the TD.

With 400 - 415 gr cast I prefer to use RL7, 3031 or H4895 with a Dacron filler. I TDs loads with these powders can push the 400 - 415 gr cast bullets to 1500+ fps out of TDs at safe pressure levels. They also are excellent powders for level 2 loads pushing up into 1800+ fps out of M1886 and Marlin lever actions. With those The 80% load density guideline applies as to whether a Dacron filler might be beneficial.

In TD level 1 loads with 500 gr bullets I prefer H4895 with a Dacron filler. I generally load this weight bullet (Rapine 460500) to duplicate M1882 cartridge ballistics of 1250 fps. However the 500 gr cast bullet with H4895 can be safely loaded within TD pressure restraints to 1500 fps.

When a filler is called for I recommend only a Dacron filler. I have thoroughly tested and used it in many different cartridges firing thousands of rounds the last 48 years. I not only have been chronographing velocities since the mid '70s but have also been measuring pressures the last 9 years. If any filler is going to cause a "ring" in a chamber it would take an increase in pressure to accomplish it Because it would take a considerable amount of pressure to cause the steel to be swaged out into a "ring". After thousands of measured velocities and pressures of Dacron fillers in cartridges with appropriate powders there has not been one single indication of a pressure spike. The use of a Dacron filler will cause a small increase in pressure because it causes the powders to burn more efficiently earlier in the expansion or gas and bullet movement down the barrel. They also decrease case capacity a small amount. Thus one should always drop back and work up a load if a Dacron filler will be used (this applies for any filler).

I have also tested numerous other types of fillers. The inert fillers such as Grex or other poly shotgun shell buffers also are beneficial when used with appropriate powders. They function similarly to a Dacron filler. Kapok also fits this category.

I also have thoroughly tested several organic materials such as COW, coffee grinds, grits, etc. and find them unsatisfactory. They will raise pressures substantially, especially when they absorb moisture.

My post in http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...use-of-fillers describes my recommendation on the proper use of fillers. A Dacron filler can be very beneficial in the 45-70 but is not always necessary.

[Yooper003]

Thank you Larry, by far the best answer I have received. I had read most of previous threads, lots of yours, but still was confused.

[Rufus Krile]

Use Trail Boss and it fills case almost using 12 grains or so, don't muck around with small amounts of fast pistol powder, safety first.

With Trail Boss you can go up to 15-16gr... doesn't sound like much but wait until you see it in the case. The maximum load they recommend is to the base of the bullet... Starting loads are 70% of that. Cleans easier than reduced loads of A5744... another really good 45/70 powder.

[bstone5]

Shoot 14 grains of Trail Boss in a Handi-Rifle chambered in 45-70.
Shoots very accurately and does not kick too bad. Have shot several hundred rounds and still using the original 50 cases. Anneal every 100 shots.
A lot of fun with a set of Williams Peep sights on the rifle.

[sharps4590]

Unique is my most used powder for reduced loads and no, I have never used it in the 45-70. I thought that would have been rather clear when I said I have never used reduced loads in the 45-70.

I haven't owned a 45-70 in...25 years at least, having long ago went with a 45-90. Mostly I shot BP in my 45-70's. If I wanted a smokeless load it was either IMR-3031 or IM-4198. My 45-90 has never seen a smokeless load nor will it as long as I own it.