The definition of ore does not state that it must be "naturally occurring". Only that it must be "native" and can be "mined at a profit".Originally Posted by oldred
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The definition of ore does not state that it must be "naturally occurring". Only that it must be "native" and can be "mined at a profit".
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Two things wrong here, first it does say,The same definition found in dozens of other sources, is there some part of "NATURALLY OCCURRING" you don't understand?
And second you can't seem to grasp the fact that placing lead into a dirt berm by shooting it there is placing a foreign substance into an area where it did not exist naturally. It was PLACED there by shooting it into the ground and no amount of your fact twisting will make it in any way "native" or "naturally occurring", no matter how long it stays there it is and always will be previously mined and refined scrap metal that can never be ore again-NEVER!
Seriously man I mean no disrespect but trying to claim that shooting lead bullets into the ground somehow makes that lead naturally occurring ore that must be "re" smelted to be recast into bullets is nonsense of the highest order, to put it bluntly it's just being plain old fashioned silly. Honestly you are really scrapping the bottom here, go back and look at some of the absurd claims you are making, take a good look at how that might sound to you if it were coming from someone else.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
https://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Ore
Says "native", not "naturally occurring". But, I'm sure, if you check enough sources, you'll find some to back you up.
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Dozens of definitions say this,
and you cherry pick one that doesn't include the actual word Natural and it somehow negates the obvious meaning? Are you kidding? Native metal IS naturally occurring metal and just calling it "native" automatically denotes it is "naturally occurring"!
(and besides lead is not a true "native" metal anyway, look it up!)
Besides that just plain common sense would indicate that shooting lead bullets into dirt is placing that lead there as a foreign substance that obviously did not exist there before! Maybe you should look up "foreign substance" since you can't seem to grasp the concept?
SERIOUSLY, go back and take a hard look at the nonsense you keep spouting and look at how ridiculous it sounds.
Give it up man, nothing you can say will convince anyone that shooting lead bullets into the dirt is going to somehow turn that lead into natural/native/whatever ore again. Lead scrap in a dirt berm is no different than lead scrap in a bucket, are you "mining ore" when you dig scrap out of bucket? Shooting a foreign substance into dirt where that substance did not exist prior will not and can not ever be considered anything but a contaminant of that area.
Look up contaminants and let's see how you try and spin that.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
Ok this is getting out of hand so let's just call that black sheep white and pretend that range scrap shot into a berm somehow magically becomes a "native/natural/whatever" ore that must be mined and "re"-smelted before being recast into something usable again. I honestly don't believe anyone with half an ounce of common sense could think that range scrap reverts back to it's ore state (in milliseconds no less!) but that is exactly the obvious contention here and apparently no amount of facts or common sense will change that contention.
Shooting lead into a dirt berm will, in MS (milliseconds) transform that lead into a "native" ore that must be mined, that's exactly what was clearly being argued. Also ore does not have to occur in the Earth naturally (much to the surprise of every geologist in the world!) and apparently it can be made by simply shooting lead into a dirt berm as has been so clearly argued here.
Of course those statements are obviously absurd but that is what has been argued, in hindsight the whole idea that lead bullets can somehow be transformed into minable (is that a word???) ore is just so ridiculous it doesn't even bear discussion so I apologize for even getting involved in this silly non-sense.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
The definition of "native" does not say "naturally occurring".
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I said NATIVE automatically denotes "naturally occurring", and it does in this case.
Does it not mean anything to you that you had to skip over and ignore so many dictionary definitions that clearly state "naturally occurring" to find one that simply didn't specifically include the word "naturally" as if that somehow means the rest of them are wrong? This has gone way beyond dictionary definitions and you are now grasping at straws and playing silly word games.
By now after all the searching you have obviously done you should ask yourself why it is you had to ignore definitions (obviously you did as dozens came up in my search as I'm certain thay had to in yours also) to come up with such things as the odd one that simply didn't specifically mention the word "naturally" when dozens of others did? (as if that changed anything anyway)
Can't you see the absurdity of insisting that shooting lead into a dirt berm somehow turns it into ore -native, natural or otherwise? How about you look up "contaminants", "foreign substances", etc since you seem to want to refer to dictionary definitions? This is no longer about definitions but simple common sense and insisting that lead bullets shot into a dirt berm somehow becomes ore, a native element to the area, or anything else besides being a contaminate to that area where it did not exist before is totally devoid of common sense, with each reply you make you are only making it look worse.
Come on man LOOK at what you are saying there!!!!!!
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
I skipped nothing. Before I went looking, I was in 100% agreement with you. Thought it pretty crazy that, by strictest definition it actually is smelting. I think we should start writing letters to the dictionaries that are "wrong".
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In agreement with me? probably but you would never admit it even to yourself, Lol!
As far as skipping over definitions I am sure we use the same internet and a Google search showed a long list of definitions that CLEARLY say "Naturally occurring" while the link you provided was the only one I saw that didn't specifically use the word "natural", but again that doesn't mean anything anyway especially when the vast majority do use it. Or maybe that one is right and ALL the others wrong?
Again, this has gone way beyond definitions and silly word games and it's obvious you can't see how ridiculous what you have been saying is such as this little gem,
"Since nobody is placing range scrap there, it is native",
Wow, Really????? Depositing it in the soil by shooting is not placing it there????
and then there's this little dilly,
"People are shooting bullets, which "become" range scrap over time (measured in ms, but still "comes into being" within the berm)"
You honestly can't see absurdity in such statements as that? Of course it becomes range scrap! It becomes range scrap the instant it's shot into the berm and not "ORE", and it did not just "come into being within the berm" it was "PLACED" there by shooting it into the dirt!
And no by the strictest definition it is NOT Smelting in any way! It is simply recycling range lead, you might try looking up "recycling" sometime. The lead contained in range scrap has already been smelted and refined once so now it is and always will be just simply lead, it will never be ore again so there is no such thing as having to "re" smelt it! By the strictest definition it is simply recovering and recycling range lead and nothing more, to continue to insist that shooting lead into a dirt berm transforms that lead into some kind of ore, any kind of ore, is just totally devoid of common sense and that's putting it politely.
Once more, go back and look at what you have been saying, from trying to say that lead was somehow not actually "placed" in the berm when shot into it so it somehow becomes "native" or in some other way becomes an ore to insisting that ore does not have to occur naturally (geologists are really going to be shocked when they learn that!).
Seriously look at what you are saying and ask yourself how that must look?
(besides you need to look up native metals, you might be surprised to see that lead is not a native metal anyway)
Last edited by oldred; 08-19-2018 at 01:45 PM.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
It is absurd. It's also logical. Using a phone it was way easier to use the dictionary.com app than to use Google. I didn't pick and choose or go looking for a source that agreed with me. In fact, what I found was not what I expected. Only reason I even looked at Webster is because you cited it. By strictest logic and definition, it can be referred to as smelting. Kinda like that whole "literally" thing. Just because I don't like it, and think it's dumb, doesn't make it untrue.
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By the strictest definition or any other LOGICAL definition it is NOT in any way "Smelting", it is by the strictest definition "Recycling"!
It would have to be an ore to be "smelted" but as an already refined metal it is no longer an ore by any definition and is to be "recycled",
or maybe it somehow became an ore when it "came into being in the berm". That's a really good one, "came into being in the berm" and was not placed there by anyone? That's what you said, along with several other equally nonsensical statements and now you want to start using the word LOGICAL?????
The bottom line is "Smelting" is the term used for refining raw ore into a pure metal or alloy and a metal can only be smelted ONCE, that is ONLY ONE TIME, after it has first been smelted into that pure metal or alloy that metal or alloy can never ever again become ore and thus is never ever again "Smelted"! It is and forever will be simply the pure metal or alloy that was produced by the smelting process and after that it becomes a recyclable product that will never again be "mined" or "smelted"! You can continue to insist the total nonsense and silly word games to make it seem, in your view anyway, like a refined metal can somehow be returned to an ore (it can NOT) and thus require "re" smelting to again turn it into the metal or alloy it was -that is utter nonsense and we both know it so what is your real point here?
"Smelting" is the process by which a pure metal or alloy is extracted from raw ore, after it is extracted ONCE, and only from RAW ORE, it becomes simply a pure metal or alloy that can then be simply MELTED and reused for another purpose but it will NEVER require smelting again, it really is as simple as that.
Seriously, LOOK at some of the things you have been saying and you think they are LOGICAL???
Last edited by oldred; 08-19-2018 at 02:35 PM.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
Now for my "two bits" worth and I didn't waste time reading this thread!
"Naturally Occuring"
If we wait long enough, say a few thousand or maybe just a few hundred years, prospectors may find our impact berms and be really impressed! Just imagine all of the wild theories they will come up with to describe the events that created their new found ore deposits. Imagine the theories to predict where more deposits might be found.
While you are imagining all of that, you won't be pointlessly arguing a whole lot about not much of anything.
I think what I'll do is get enough people to start smelting range ore that they literally have to change the definition so all dictionaries are the same....literally.
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If you can get enough people to change a definition that would do it then maybe you could get people to start "smelting" range "ore" but until then range "ORE" doesn't even exist and thus "Smelting" it is just plain nonsense, but then I think we have both known that all along.
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
Be impressed? I doubt it, if the libbies continue to get their way it will be roped off as a deadly hazardous waste area containing projectiles from the evil firearms that went around shooting people before people stopped the wicked things! After all firearms have a diabolical mind of their own and will shoot you if they get the chance, then that poisonous lead would be apt to cause all sorts of human maladies, from decreased mental capacity to causing babies to be born nekid, they will know that lead is some nasty stuff!
Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot
That's not how it works. People have to use the word and THEN the definition changes. So, happy smelting, everybody! Gonna go mine up some range ore after work.
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Where I live we sometimes find huge piles of box turtle shells buried in the ground. Are they deposits of box turtle "ore?" No, they are middens deposited by the pre-Columbian native people. Children collected the turtles during the day, and they were prepared for meals.If we wait long enough, say a few thousand or maybe just a few hundred years, prospectors may find our impact berms and be really impressed! Just imagine all of the wild theories they will come up with to describe the events that created their new found ore deposits.
There are oyster shell middens as well. Would those who discover them speculate that oysters had lived naturally as half-shell valves in gigantic piles?
I suspect that if archeologists discover large deposits of lead in the form of pellets with grooves impressed upon them, often deformed by apparent impacts, they will surmise that people made the deposits. They will then likely reason that the lead was formed into projectiles.
I'm with oldred.
As boolit casters we do not "smelt" though many here use that term when melting their "raw" lead in the form of wheelweights, range scrap or whatever.
I have worked in and around the Teck Metals (formerly Cominco) lead smelter and refinery since 1981. At Teck lead concentrate is processed through a Kivcet furnace which replaced old wedge style blast furnaces that required sintering before the or went to the furnace. The Kivcet is a more modern furnace that eliminates the need for sintering and allows treatment of a wide variety of ores and residues.
The process is described here:
https://www.saimm.co.za/Conferences/.../233-Rioux.pdf
Read through that then decide if you are truly "smelting" If your lead pot has coke injection and discharges lead at 850-950 degrees C then maybe you are smelting.
"Mining" your local gun range berm then melting the scrap lead and casting into ingots or boolits is not the same as reducing lead sulphides and oxides to extract crude lead bullion which is later refined into pure lead then alloyed with antimony and other elements to make pigs of bullet alloy. Call it what you want but it is not smelting by definition.
Longbow
I choose to call collecting range scrap recycling or recuperating. Then it can be melted down and cleaned up into ingots or maybe directly into boolits if wanted. In addition I think it becomes range scrap the moment it passes the target and not when it enters a burm. Like the range scrap I collect from my indoor range with a steel back stop. That makes the most sense to me.
Now if you want to carry this on more, what is it when they grind up old cars and then melt what is left?
Automobile ore.
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