MidSouth Shooters SupplyInline FabricationLoad DataRotoMetals2
Lee PrecisionReloading EverythingTitan ReloadingRepackbox
Wideners
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Did Moses change GOD's mind ?

  1. #1
    In Remembrance / Boolit Grand Master Boaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    11,571

    Did Moses change GOD's mind ?

    Did Moses manage to change the mind of God at a time ? Or was he working THROUGH Moses ? Why did he give grace and not judgement ? Does giving prayer matter ?

    Does prayer change things? Does it change us ? Are there are times in which God waits for us to ask for things because His plan is that we work with Him in the process of bringing His will to pass here on earth ?
    Last edited by Boaz; 08-14-2018 at 12:11 PM.
    No turning back , No turning back !

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Shawnee, OK
    Posts
    2,949
    The Bible clearly shows God expressing regret, changing his mind and asking questions he already knows the answers to. This is a bit challenging to reconcile with his omniscience. However, if you look at all this from a parent's perspective it makes more sense. We know our children very well yet end up doing the same things.

    We are made in God's image. We can learn much about God by observing ourselves (despite our fallen nature).

  3. #3
    Moderator


    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Way up in the Cascades
    Posts
    8,073
    Really a subject to ponder, and one for which it is difficult to reach a firm conclusion. The scriptures record instances where God's wrath was kindled against the Israelites and he said that he would kill all of them. But then he changed his mind and spared many of them. He said that he changed his mind, "I repent myself of my thoughts to...." On the other hand, God foreknows everything and always has, so he would have to know that he would change his mind. But, maybe, he just foreknows as much as he choses to foreknow, always hoping that an individual man and mankind will do the right thing. If that is true, then one might draw the conclusion that events and futures can be changed and are not destined to end in a preordained way. Still, the end time prophesies will occur and must occur, but perhaps they can be delayed; and that might be why "no man knows the day and hour of his coming." Best answer I can give with just one cup of coffee.

  4. #4
    In Remembrance / Boolit Grand Master Boaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    11,571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The Bible clearly shows God expressing regret, changing his mind and asking questions he already knows the answers to. This is a bit challenging to reconcile with his omniscience. However, if you look at all this from a parent's perspective it makes more sense. We know our children very well yet end up doing the same things.

    We are made in God's image. We can learn much about God by observing ourselves (despite our fallen nature).
    Yours was a good answer . This particular situation with Moses and GOD can be a point of much speculation or opinion . GOD is omniscience but at the same time he gives grace because of his love and mercy . Your comparison to our children is on target and makes it easy to understand . But did Moses talking to GOD have a hand in this 'change' of 'mind' that GOD had ?

    Through prayer or just talking to GOD can we change things being involved on a personal level ?
    No turning back , No turning back !

  5. #5
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lenore, WV
    Posts
    2,840
    In order to get a person to think or reflect on a subject,you ask a question. Just as you did in this thread. God can not lie so any promise God made is a sure thing. It is destined that we are all going to die,barring the rapture, but the length and quality of life can be changed by faith and prayer.
    Another example is before the flood when God decided to destroy all except Noah. It appears that God was surprised that mankind could become so wicked so quickly. But since God created man he knew of man's potential behavior.
    I believe God asks questions to get us to think not for us to persuade him in His actions.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,725
    I came up with a little story to explain the power and love of God concerning our desires and the future. Keep in mind these verses, "God can do immeasurably more than we can ask or imagine", No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived of what God has in store for those who love him" and one of my all time favorites, "delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart".
    Consider a young successful architect. So successful that he is able to work at home, and is designing his own dream house to build. His little son sits with him while he works on his drawings...the little boy says,"I thought it would be really nice to have a round bedroom". His loving dad stops his work and says "Oh really? Tell me about this round bedroom you have in mind". As the boy begins to explain how he would like the windows to face out to a woods and a stream, the father starts erasing a corner of the house, preparing to modify it to be a round bedroom...
    I believe that this is how God in his love for us is eager to shape our futures. To bless us with the "desires of our hearts."
    And so of course God can shape or reshape the future, change his mind or do what ever his heart desires.
    A man can study God's ways or simply walk with Him. Remember what God said of David, "Now here is a man after my own heart".

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    8,898
    I struggle with things like this. It is too easy to rationalize and try to make things "fit". God cannot know all things and how things will happen and then be guilty of "changing his mind".

    The more plausible answer is that God is not perfect. He may not have every event in our lives, and those who will be born centuries from now, planned in advance. He may not be what we see in the Bible. But He is as perfect as we need Him to be. He is as perfect and all knowing as He is able explain to us in a manner that we can comprehend. If we accept He made us in His image, then He knew we would be imperfect beings as well.

    In Genesis, God asks "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" When of course He must have known that to be so. Was it a rhetorical question? Most assume so...but.....what if it wasn't?

    If all is preordained, then praying for results seems rather fruitless. I pray for strength, patience and wisdom instead of "things". Yet, I pray for my fiancé's little granddaughter who is has major medical problems to deal with. Maybe it will not matter, but it cannot hurt.

    Good questions Charlie. We will know more when our time comes.
    Don Verna


  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    13,617
    1) God is immutable - He changes not. Appearance of change requires another explanation.
    2) The purpose of prayer is to move me closer to the mind of God, not to get my desires met. The closer I get to God the more satisfied I am. All too often our prayers are simply giving God marching orders - please do this or that. Even asking for traveling mercies is not necessarily answered the way we want. On our way up to Maine for our vacation we sat on the tarmac in Philly for over 2 hours waiting to take off - waiting for the thunder storms that swamped Eastern PA to clear. I thanked the crew through the stewardess for getting us to our destination safely. Not exactly what I had thought of when I asked for traveling mercies - but we got them. Bangor ME airport and car rental was open and the staff stayed at the resort for us to get there. Even got the car upgraded without asking!
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Shawnee, OK
    Posts
    2,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Boaz View Post
    Yours was a good answer . This particular situation with Moses and GOD can be a point of much speculation or opinion . GOD is omniscience but at the same time he gives grace because of his love and mercy . Your comparison to our children is on target and makes it easy to understand . But did Moses talking to GOD have a hand in this 'change' of 'mind' that GOD had ?

    Through prayer or just talking to GOD can we change things being involved on a personal level ?
    In the particular passage you referenced, Moses most certainly changed God's mind. That is the most natural reading of the text anyway.

    I know that some people think that a kind of game was being played at this point to test Moses. Others think that the idea of God changing his mind is anthropomorphic. Some people think prayer has no effect on what God will do, but is an exercise that develops the believer; a reminder that we need God.

    Prayer has a bit of mystery to it. If God hears our prayers and can accomplish anything why does it seem like he is not listening or acting at times? I think the answer to this can be found in model biblical prayers and not so model prayers (seen also in the Bible).

    The prayer Jesus taught the disciples focuses on God and his role in their lives. The prayer did not contain the pronoun "I". Jesus' disciples' prayers were to include other disciples. Specific requests are made in the broadest of terms (i.e., daily bread, forgiveness and protection from the world). This probably suggests praying with the idea that God knows best.

    Moses' prayer for the Israelites contained in Exodus was one made with concern for God's reputation. Moses did not pray for his own needs. In fact, had God destroyed the Israelites in the desert, Moses would have been the new patriarch.

    Anyway, James said it better than I can:

    "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." James 5:16

    "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." James 4:3

  10. #10
    In Remembrance / Boolit Grand Master Boaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    11,571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    In the particular passage you referenced, Moses most certainly changed God's mind. That is the most natural reading of the text anyway.

    I know that some people think that a kind of game was being played at this point to test Moses. Others think that the idea of God changing his mind is anthropomorphic. Some people think prayer has no effect on what God will do, but is an exercise that develops the believer; a reminder that we need God.

    Prayer has a bit of mystery to it. If God hears our prayers and can accomplish anything why does it seem like he is not listening or acting at times? I think the answer to this can be found in model biblical prayers and not so model prayers (seen also in the Bible).

    The prayer Jesus taught the disciples focuses on God and his role in their lives. The prayer did not contain the pronoun "I". Jesus' disciples' prayers were to include other disciples. Specific requests are made in the broadest of terms (i.e., daily bread, forgiveness and protection from the world). This probably suggests praying with the idea that God knows best.

    Moses' prayer for the Israelites contained in Exodus was one made with concern for God's reputation. Moses did not pray for his own needs. In fact, had God destroyed the Israelites in the desert, Moses would have been the new patriarch.

    Anyway, James said it better than I can:

    "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." James 5:16

    "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." James 4:3

    THIS IS NOT A THEOLOGICAL DEBATE . But of your comment I would ask you to reconsider …

    'Prayer has a bit of mystery to it. If God hears our prayers and can accomplish anything why does it seem like he is not listening or acting at times? I think the answer to this can be found in model biblical prayers and not so model prayers (seen also in the Bible). '


    There is too much scripture on prayer for this to be the case . I will NOT get in a scripture war . I admit that we do not know exactly what GOD's reaction will be to a specific prayer request but GOD does grant favor ...we are told so too many times in his word . Prayer can and does matter . I will not specify because no one knows . Prayer is part of FAITH . But your thoughts are your own .
    No turning back , No turning back !

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    2,911
    God is omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing. If a change occurs, it was predetermined by God

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Shawnee, OK
    Posts
    2,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Boaz View Post
    THIS IS NOT A THEOLOGICAL DEBATE . But of your comment I would ask you to reconsider …

    'Prayer has a bit of mystery to it. If God hears our prayers and can accomplish anything why does it seem like he is not listening or acting at times? I think the answer to this can be found in model biblical prayers and not so model prayers (seen also in the Bible). '


    There is too much scripture on prayer for this to be the case . I will NOT get in a scripture war . I admit that we do not know exactly what GOD's reaction will be to a specific prayer request but GOD does grant favor ...we are told so too many times in his word . Prayer can and does matter . I will not specify because no one knows . Prayer is part of FAITH . But your thoughts are your own .
    Reconsider what? I never said prayer didn't matter. I said effective prayer is made when it conforms to the model God gave us. When we deviate from that model, prayer will not be effective (see James).

    When Moses plead for Israel he made an effective prayer since he was not concerned with what would benefit him, but what would benefit God.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 08-14-2018 at 08:53 PM.

  13. #13
    In Remembrance / Boolit Grand Master Boaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    11,571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Reconsider what? I never said prayer didn't matter. I said effective prayer is made when it conforms to the model God gave us. When we deviate from that model, prayer will not be effective (see James).

    When Moses plead for Israel he made an effective prayer since he was not concerned with what would benefit him, but what would benefit God.
    Good enough . We all have our thoughts .
    No turning back , No turning back !

  14. #14
    Moderator Emeritus


    buckwheatpaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,882
    Quote Originally Posted by Boaz View Post
    Did Moses manage to change the mind of God at a time ? Or was he working THROUGH Moses ? Why did he give grace and not judgement ? Does giving prayer matter ?

    Does prayer change things? Does it change us ? Are there are times in which God waits for us to ask for things because His plan is that we work with Him in the process of bringing His will to pass here on earth ?
    I believe that Moses did change God's mind at least one time.....I believe it was in Deuteronomy when God was going to do away with all the Jews and Moses reminded God that He picked them to be His people......
    When guns are outlawed only criminals and the government will have them and at that time I will see very little difference in either!

    "Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems man faces." President Ronald Reagan

    "We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the law breaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is acoutable for his actions." Presdent Ronald Reagan

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    3,401
    How can someone change a perfect mind. God had a perfect mind before the Universe, during the Universe and will have a PERFECT mind for ever. God is perfection. How can perfection be changed. Only non perfection can be changed.
    Gods knowledge is perfect knowledge.
    How can God's perfect knowledge be changed? If his mind can be changed then it must not be perfect.
    We are not using what we call perfection and comparing it to All Perfect God's perfection.
    I believe God has perfect knowledge.


    Again I an not trying to hurt, harm or cause anguish by my post. I am not calling out, baiting or trolling anyone on here. I made a statement based on my knowledge using my imperfect mind only. Please take it how you will.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Shawnee, OK
    Posts
    2,949
    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    How can someone change a perfect mind. God had a perfect mind before the Universe, during the Universe and will have a PERFECT mind for ever. God is perfection. How can perfection be changed. Only non perfection can be changed.
    Gods knowledge is perfect knowledge.
    How can God's perfect knowledge be changed? If his mind can be changed then it must not be perfect.
    We are not using what we call perfection and comparing it to All Perfect God's perfection.
    I believe God has perfect knowledge.


    Again I an not trying to hurt, harm or cause anguish by my post. I am not calling out, baiting or trolling anyone on here. I made a statement based on my knowledge using my imperfect mind only. Please take it how you will.
    Your premise is that since God is omniscient and cannot lie, his mind cannot be changed because he would have known he'd change his mind and not made the original decision in the first place.

    So when we consider places in the Bible where God did seem to change his mind or express regret (before the flood God regretted making man) we'd like determine what is going on. There are a few solutions. The first is the biblical writer was wrong. The second is that God was just play acting. The third is maybe what we think we know about God is not necessarily true.

    I believe the third statement to be correct. Why can't a perfect mind be changed, especially when dealing with other intelligent persons?

    The God of the Bible is pretty flexible when it comes to working with people. When dealing with Israel, God made many promises that were modified or even done away with since they were conditional. In fact, God pleaded with Israel throughout her history so he could change his mind concerning the judgment he promised.

    Here's two examples of how I look at this issue:

    Everyday I have a plan on how to get my kids out of bed and delivered to school. My plan is wise and based on decades of experience. However, my sons often make me change my plans based on their behavior and input. The funny thing is that I know this will happen before I even wake them up.

    A couple years ago I repainted our master bedroom. I first needed to scrape all the popcorn texture off the ceiling. When I started the job I knew it was going to be a pain and that I'd regret it once I started. I started anyway and it sure was dirty and lots of work. In the middle of the clean up I expressed regret (to anyone who'd listen) on not just leaving it alone. But I kept on with the project and was happy with the end product.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    3,401
    God designed things the way they went. He know before he created the Universe what would happen from the beginning to the very end.
    Just becaused he regretted making man doesnt, for a second, mean he made the decision not knowing how it would turn out.
    God Is perfect. We serve a perfect God not an imperfect one. God does not flip flop. Our perception is we look at perfect based on what we think of perfect since we have an imperfect mind. Devine perfection is perfection not what our perception is.
    Ones perception becomes one truth/reality. Let each one believe how they want to believe since we have freedom to believe rhe way we want to believe due to the fact we have imperfect minds trying to think like we have perfect minds. We dont. I believe God to be perfect.

    Again I am not trying to hurt, harm or cause any anguish by my post. I am not trolling baiting, or calling out anyone on here. I am just making a statement based on my knowledge and/or belief. Please take it that way if you will. I have no control over the situation.

  18. #18
    Moderator


    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Way up in the Cascades
    Posts
    8,073
    Exodus 32:10
    (NAS) "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them, and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation."
    (KJ) Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation.
    (ML) so, leave Me alone so that My indignation may flame against them and I may consume ;them; then I will make you into a great nation.
    (LB) Now let me alone and my anger shall blaze out against them and destroy them all, and I will make you, Moses, into a great nation instead of them."

    Exodus 32:11
    (NAS) Then Moses entreated the Lord his God......"
    (KJ) And Moses besought the Lord his God......
    (ML) But Moses pleaded before the Lord his God...
    (LB) But Moses begged God not to do it...............

    Exodus 32:14
    (NAS) So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to his people.
    (KJ) And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
    (ML) And the Lord felt grieved regarding the punishment He had thought to apply to his people.
    (LB) So the Lord changed his mind and spared them.

    If we accept the Holy Bible as being the true, immutable word of God then it looks to me like he changed his mind.
    Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 08-15-2018 at 05:54 PM. Reason: s-p.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    3,401
    My post #17 is my last on the subject because the God I serve is a Perfect God. My mind is set. Because my mind is imperfect and I am at least smart enough to know my mind is imperfect.

    Again I am not trying to hurt, harm or cause any anguish by my post. I am not trolling baiting, or calling out anyone on here. I am just making a statement based on my knowledge and/or belief. Please take it that way if you will. I have no control over the situation.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    12,820
    The original questions presupposes a view of Scripture not held by all Christians.

    If the reader hold a verbal dictation/flat book understanding of scripture, then Moses did indeed change God's mind.

    If the reader holds a plenary inspiration understanding of scripture than it takes more than a casual reading to come to grips with the question.

    Bottom line is for me the question holds no significance about my relationship with God and how I live my life to conform to the mind of Christ. It is not a question I need to ponder or answer.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check