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Thread: 6.5 Creedmore - NOT

  1. #81
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    We really do start to squeeze apples in with the oranges when we speak hunting vs target usage. There are just so many variables at extended range, bullet performance at the velocity of impact being a biggie, not to mention what that animal can do between trigger pull and impact, that I have to start questioning my own hunger ethics. I limit my shots to under 400 yards at the extreme, but I'll take a 400 yard shot with my 22lr if all I have to do is mark steel! I replaced my 243 with a 260, then got into the Grendel because the rifle weighs about what my boots do, and will kill'em just as dead at 95% of the rangers I'm likely to get a shot. I like the 6.5 in all platforms, shoot what ya bring, but I would say the are 25 6.5 CM rifles on the rack rite now, to every 260,6.5x55, or 6.5 mag etcetcetc. My local pusher, I mean LGS, has a Grendel, a couple 260s, and a pot full of 6.5 CM on the rack.

    Some folks say anything invented after the 45-70 is just a waste.
    Excellent points!

    I will readily admit that the 6.5 Creedmoor is a fantastic long-range target round and trumps the .308. But when hunting at "ethical" distances, it is silly, IMHO, to replace a .308 or .260, or .257 Roberts with the 6.5 Creedmoor based on 800yd supremacy.

    My first hunting rifle was a Winchester XTR Featherweight in .257 Roberts. I shot my first deer, elk, and antelope with it. I still have it. I bought a Ruger M77 AWR in .30-06 a decade later and it will kill anything I am hunting for.

    My brother is a hunting rifle aficionado. He buys the latest and greatest calibers all in the quest to get the maximum range and performance out of his rifle. I lost track of all of his guns, but if I recall correctly, he was touting a .300 WSM in a Tikka as the best medicine for elk.

    Funny thing is, the last two or three elk he's shot were at under 100yds... So much for needing 4" less drop at 500yds...
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  2. #82
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    youd think I criticized your daughter
    Quote Originally Posted by John Ross View Post
    No, no, no, and NO! Drop and drift comparisons are listed in MOA, not inches! That's 32 inches less drop and 8 inches less drift, in a cartridge with 4% more muzzle energy and 24% less recoil.

    You seem hell-bent on denigrating this cartridge. Let me point out a few realities:

    1. "New" cartridges, especially cartridges designed for long range competition, are often based on the answer to the question "what are the best bullets available in this caliber?" When that question is answered, and the best bullet won't work in an existing gun because the twist is too slow or the OAL is too long for the magazine, a new cartridge is developed that addresses those issues.

    2. Many, MANY more rounds are fired each year at inanimate objects than are fired at living creatures.

    3. Almost every rifleman alive prefers (all other things being equal) more accuracy and less recoil.

    The 6.5 Creedmoor is able to take advantage of bullets that did not exist when the .260 Remington was introduced, and which will not work well in existing .260 Remington guns under many conditions.

    The issue is not "Should I dump my .308 or .260 or whatever for a 6.5 Creedmoor?" It's "What are the benefits of this cartridge over others that are available?"

    Attachment 229014
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 10-18-2018 at 06:13 AM.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  3. #83
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    my point exactly. I don't punch paper other then for load development. I kill deer and other animals. To many variables in the field to shoot living animals out past 500 yards. Ive done it in the past but a few times paid the price (the animal did) and wont do it again. Especially with a light caliber gun. I shoot a lot of deer out to 400 and know even 300 yards takes an experienced shooter to make perfect shots each time on a living animal. Gun magazines would have a guy think today you can just go to your gun shop and buy some magic caliber and slap a night force on it and that will instantly make you a 600 yard deer killer. I don't even care if you can sit on a bench with your rifle rest and sand bags and shoot the snot out of a target at 600 yard. Most of us don't haul a bench and bags out in the deer fields.

    I talked to a navy seal sniper once. He told me this. In sniper school about everyone does well off of a bench. He said that if you couldn't do that you wouldn't be there to begin with. Its when pressure is put on you that separates the wanabes from the trigger men. I guess I should appolgize in a way for my post. Im not a paper puncher. If that's your thing then have at it. maybe then the creedmore shows you some advantage.

    Im a hunter plain and simple. I shoot deer. A lot of them. Usually 30-50 a year doing crop damage shooting. Just about all of them between 200-400 yards. A few a bit closer a few a bit farther. If you think for a hunter the creedmore is the end all of rounds your smoking crack. Its an ok round and that's it. Its no better then whats been used for 50 years to kill deer at those ranges. There is no magic in a 6.5 bullet. Ive killed a pile of deer with my 264 and just as many with my 7mags and if you can see a difference your a better man then me. If you can tell the difference between a 260 or creedmore when compared to a 708 your a better man then me.

    I guess to me even if you are shooting way out there at paper dialing in 10 clicks vs 15 clicks doesn't matter much and if you want to adjust less then youd be better served with a 7mag or 300 mag to start with. Some cant handle the recoil. I have no problem with it. Ive sat and shot 30 or more shots out of my 300 ultra mag or my 8mag and even my 458 mag and never needed to go to the emergency room afterward. I will also apologize to the guys that just want a new toy. Heck I do it all the time. I like to try out a new gun or caliber every year (at least one). But what I don't do is pretend I just reinvented the wheel. or the caliber I choose for that new gun makes me some kind of gun guru and everyone that doesn't agree with my choice is living in the dark ages. Bottom line is a guy with an old Winchester 06 with a 3x9 leupold that can shoot will do better in the field then someone that spends 5k on a gun and scope and wind and barometer meters that isn't. then take away his bench, his bags, factor in he doesn't have 5 minutes to measure wind and pressure and use his range finder and dial in some windage and elevation while the deer walks away when that old guy with his 06 are gutting a deer.

    Keep in mind too something that sniper told me. he said he considers it a success in most case if his target crawls off wounded. Only a sick person would say the same about a deer. Like thunderstuck said lots can happen on a 400 yard shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    We really do start to squeeze apples in with the oranges when we speak hunting vs target usage. There are just so many variables at extended range, bullet performance at the velocity of impact being a biggie, not to mention what that animal can do between trigger pull and impact, that I have to start questioning my own hunger ethics. I limit my shots to under 400 yards at the extreme, but I'll take a 400 yard shot with my 22lr if all I have to do is mark steel! I replaced my 243 with a 260, then got into the Grendel because the rifle weighs about what my boots do, and will kill'em just as dead at 95% of the rangers I'm likely to get a shot. I like the 6.5 in all platforms, shoot what ya bring, but I would say the are 25 6.5 CM rifles on the rack rite now, to every 260,6.5x55, or 6.5 mag etcetcetc. My local pusher, I mean LGS, has a Grendel, a couple 260s, and a pot full of 6.5 CM on the rack.

    Some folks say anything invented after the 45-70 is just a waste.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  4. #84
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    Here is a write up by a tester and comp shooter I got of the internet (I know the internet) the last sentence about sums it up.




    One of the big topics in the Gun rags is the new 6.5 Creedmoore cartridge. It's the usual yada, yada, yada. It's the latest and greatest so go out and buy one right away.

    Lets look at the truth about the new cartridge (something you will not find in the gun rags).

    Is it an accurate cartridge, yes. It has the potential (with modifications) to the rifle for shooting consistent inch groups. But will an off the shelf rifle do it. Most likely it will not without modifications. More on this later.

    Is it better than the .308. For all practical purposes, no. This statement you will never see in the gun rags.

    The 6.5 Creedmoore development came about because Dave Tubb, a famous high power rifle shooter was looking for an accurate, efficient cartridge with low recoil which results in the low fatigue factor when shooting the national match course. This he achieved. But should the average guy scrape out his match grade .308 rifle for the newer 6.5 Creedmoore. I would say no unless your bank account is unlimited, as your gain in accuracy is hardly worth discussing. In my own testing the difference was barely noticeable between the match grade .308 and the Creedmoore. Recoil was slightly less with the 6.5.

    Now here is the real draw back, and one that is not discussed in the Gun Rags. The barrel life with the 6.5 Creedmoore is a scant 4,000 rounds. Sounds like a lot of barrel life to the once a year hunter but to the target shooter as you are talking about less than a 2 year barrel life. The .308 will go at least 6,000 and if given good care can go as long as 8,000 rounds. This is from my experience and the experience of some of my fellow shooters that I have competed with.

    As a matter of fact if I decide to someday get an AR in a 6.5 caliber is will not be in the expensive to buy 6.5 Creedmoor case but it would be in the .260 Remington caliber as I can make all the brass I want out of .308 cases which is much cheaper than buying the super expensive 6.5 Creedmoor cases. The .260 also has more powder capacity if I want to go to the heavier bullets. It must be remembered that the Creedmoor was designed to shoot the 120 grain and 140 grain pills not the heavier 160 grain bullets. Which by the way there is a very big lack of in the match grade bullets for sale by the bullet making companies. This of course is a very big mistake as the heavier slugs, even though they travel a bit slower would be better in the wind but the recoil advantage of the Creedmoor would go away.

    With my various .308 match guns, given that you have a scope of 20 power or higher, a match grade trigger that goes off in the ounces, not the pounds and you are using match grade ammo will consistently shoot just a hair over inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. The 6.5 calibers will consistently shoot inch under the same conditions. But it will not do it with a stock AR15 gun with their very bad triggers. A match trigger (in the ounces) is a must for either the 6.5 or .308 calibers. This hardly justifies scrapping out any expensive match grade .308 rifle you may already own. Again this fair comparison will never been discussed in any gun rags. It is there job to sell new guns not give a fair analysis of any new cartridge or firearm that has recently come on the market.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  5. #85
    Boolit Buddy John Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    youd think I criticized your daughter
    LOL! What is especially funny is that I have a daughter, but I don't have a 6.5 Creedmoor...
    JR--the .500 specialist

  6. #86
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    Btw, none of the cartridges we have discussed will run in an AR15! AR10, yes. One reason I went 260 to begin with is I'm a reloader and 260 can be formed from 243,7-08, and 308 with a little trimming and maby a neck turn.

  7. #87
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    One point I need to make once again is, the Creedmoor is a better choice for me because all my rifle loads are on the mild side. My powder charges are usually starting load to mid-range. As in, 150 grain .30 WCF at 2000 fps, 117 grain .257 Roberts at 2600 fps, and 140 grain 6.5 Creedmoor at 2300-2400 fps. With that in mind, the 6.5 makes alot more sense than the .260 or .308 as the latter two will have more empty space in the case. I am honest about my meager abilities as a marksman and never shoot at anything over 200 yards, so more velocity (with less barrel life and more powder usage and recoil) will do me no good whatsoever.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  8. #88
    Boolit Master northmn's Avatar
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    Again I agree with most of what is said about the Creedmoor's limitations. As a hunting round it is probably more limited in range than some of the others. BUT. When you look at ammo availability there are 49 different choices at Midway USA and not even half that for the Swede or the 260. Go to the LGS and you can get several different rifle models in the 6.5 Creedmoor and I might see one or two in the 260 and a very expensive 6.5 Swede. Kind of like comparing the 6mm Remington to the 243. Many say the 6mm Remington was a better round, but try to get one. Remington and Federal are now offering inexpensive hunting ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor but not in the 260 or 6.5 Swede.


    There are some that say that the differences in prices do not matter, but to many it does. Also the performance is so close, why pay more? I have seen a lot of deer killed by the Swede and thought it would be a nice hunting rifle. So I bought a Creedmoor because it shoots the same bullets at a similar velocity. Just because there is a lot of B.S. spouted about the cartridge does not mean it is a bad one, just that some claims are B.S. It gives some of use a nice hunting cartridge in the class of the 257 Roberts or the 6.5 Swede and is available. Economy is a real advantage. A local store has a heavy barrel Savage Creedmoor listed for about $420. It would kill a lot of deer for me if I had it, at my self imposed ranges. You cannot get a 260 or a new made Swede even close to that.


    DEP

  9. #89
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    Exactly!
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    Here is a write up by a tester and comp shooter I got of the internet (I know the internet) the last sentence about sums it up.




    One of the big topics in the Gun rags is the new 6.5 Creedmoore cartridge. It's the usual yada, yada, yada. It's the latest and greatest so go out and buy one right away.

    Lets look at the truth about the new cartridge (something you will not find in the gun rags).

    Is it an accurate cartridge, yes. It has the potential (with modifications) to the rifle for shooting consistent inch groups. But will an off the shelf rifle do it. Most likely it will not without modifications. More on this later.

    Is it better than the .308. For all practical purposes, no. This statement you will never see in the gun rags.

    The 6.5 Creedmoore development came about because Dave Tubb, a famous high power rifle shooter was looking for an accurate, efficient cartridge with low recoil which results in the low fatigue factor when shooting the national match course. This he achieved. But should the average guy scrape out his match grade .308 rifle for the newer 6.5 Creedmoore. I would say no unless your bank account is unlimited, as your gain in accuracy is hardly worth discussing. In my own testing the difference was barely noticeable between the match grade .308 and the Creedmoore. Recoil was slightly less with the 6.5.

    Now here is the real draw back, and one that is not discussed in the Gun Rags. The barrel life with the 6.5 Creedmoore is a scant 4,000 rounds. Sounds like a lot of barrel life to the once a year hunter but to the target shooter as you are talking about less than a 2 year barrel life. The .308 will go at least 6,000 and if given good care can go as long as 8,000 rounds. This is from my experience and the experience of some of my fellow shooters that I have competed with.

    As a matter of fact if I decide to someday get an AR in a 6.5 caliber is will not be in the expensive to buy 6.5 Creedmoor case but it would be in the .260 Remington caliber as I can make all the brass I want out of .308 cases which is much cheaper than buying the super expensive 6.5 Creedmoor cases. The .260 also has more powder capacity if I want to go to the heavier bullets. It must be remembered that the Creedmoor was designed to shoot the 120 grain and 140 grain pills not the heavier 160 grain bullets. Which by the way there is a very big lack of in the match grade bullets for sale by the bullet making companies. This of course is a very big mistake as the heavier slugs, even though they travel a bit slower would be better in the wind but the recoil advantage of the Creedmoor would go away.

    With my various .308 match guns, given that you have a scope of 20 power or higher, a match grade trigger that goes off in the ounces, not the pounds and you are using match grade ammo will consistently shoot just a hair over inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. The 6.5 calibers will consistently shoot inch under the same conditions. But it will not do it with a stock AR15 gun with their very bad triggers. A match trigger (in the ounces) is a must for either the 6.5 or .308 calibers. This hardly justifies scrapping out any expensive match grade .308 rifle you may already own. Again this fair comparison will never been discussed in any gun rags. It is there job to sell new guns not give a fair analysis of any new cartridge or firearm that has recently come on the market.

    The only statement that is correct is that it is the internet. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the brain child of the partnership by Hornady Senior Ballistics Scientist, Dave Emary and Dennis DeMille, the VP of product development for Creedmoor Sports for NRA Highpower competition. David Tubb developed the 6CX for the same usage. http://www.6mmbr.com/6XC.html.

    Accuracy comparison indicates this individual is probably not a knowledgeable Highpower competitor. Either cartridge fulfills the accuracy needs but the competitive advavantage goes to the 6.5 due to less wind drift. Matches are won or lost on wind reading ability. Any semi-serious HP competitor know this.

    Barrel life. The 308 rarely goes much over 4,000 rounds for competitive barrel life before you start losing shots due to elevation.

    Bullet availability????? Manufactures are very good about producing what the shooter want.

    Brass cost claims that the 6.5 is way more expensive is also BS. Starline and Hornady brass are about the same as 308 and the 6.5 can be formed 22-250.

    AR15 usage????????? The 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't fit in the AR15.

    A little more history here:

    https://www.range365.com/65-creedmoor-long-range-king

    https://www.outdoorlife.com/evolutio...eedmoor#page-3
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 10-18-2018 at 02:15 PM.

  11. #91
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    The 6.5 Creedmoor is now old news...

    The latest and greatest new whiz-bang cartridge for REAL snipers is the 6.5 PRC...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  12. #92
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  13. #93
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    I will keep my 6.5 x 284's http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...fle-cartridge/ but I only have those in single shot match rifles. The 6.5 PRC may resolve some mag issues like the 6.5 Creedmoor does but I have no first hand knowledge of that.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 10-19-2018 at 06:46 PM.

  14. #94
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    Accuracy comparison indicates this individual is probably not a knowledgeable Highpower competitor.
    and you are so we should hang on your every word?
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    The 6.5 Creedmoor is now old news...

    The latest and greatest new whiz-bang cartridge for REAL snipers is the 6.5 PRC...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ya even for competitors it was quickly replaced by the 6mm creedmore.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by northmn View Post
    Again I agree with most of what is said about the Creedmoor's limitations. As a hunting round it is probably more limited in range than some of the others. BUT. When you look at ammo availability there are 49 different choices at Midway USA and not even half that for the Swede or the 260. Go to the LGS and you can get several different rifle models in the 6.5 Creedmoor and I might see one or two in the 260 and a very expensive 6.5 Swede. Kind of like comparing the 6mm Remington to the 243. Many say the 6mm Remington was a better round, but try to get one. Remington and Federal are now offering inexpensive hunting ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor but not in the 260 or 6.5 Swede.


    There are some that say that the differences in prices do not matter, but to many it does. Also the performance is so close, why pay more? I have seen a lot of deer killed by the Swede and thought it would be a nice hunting rifle. So I bought a Creedmoor because it shoots the same bullets at a similar velocity. Just because there is a lot of B.S. spouted about the cartridge does not mean it is a bad one, just that some claims are B.S. It gives some of use a nice hunting cartridge in the class of the 257 Roberts or the 6.5 Swede and is available. Economy is a real advantage. A local store has a heavy barrel Savage Creedmoor listed for about $420. It would kill a lot of deer for me if I had it, at my self imposed ranges. You cannot get a 260 or a new made Swede even close to that.


    DEP
    now money IS a valid argument. Not a lot of high power long range shooters up here and he 6.5s I saw on the racks at the gunshop were usually sold at a reduced price because they collected dust. Now if I found a steal on one id not be beyond buying it. or maybe even a 400 dollar ruger American would make a good 250-300 yard deer in the same league as a 243 260 ect and I wouldn't be beyond buying one for that either if it was cheap. I will agree too that ammo is not hard to find. Seems the market was flooded with it. It is easier to find then 260 or 6.5x55. About every gunshop up here has it. Probably again because they drank the koolaid and bought more then what the market really became.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  17. #97
    Boolit Buddy John Ross's Avatar
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    M-Tecs, many thanks for your thoughtful and informative posts.

    I started reading this thread because I knew little about the 6.5 Creedmoor, but it is one of the few calibers currently available in Mark 7's new (and possibly game-changing) Revolution and Evolution presses, and that sparked my interest.

    The irony is not lost on me that this discussion we are having is in the "Factory Rifles" section of a CAST BULLET forum! I am not going to buy a 6.5 Creedmoor factory rifle of any make, and I am certainly not going to shoot cast bullets in it.

    I own exactly one 6.5 caliber rifle, the one I had built 36 years ago in 1982 when I got interested in 1000 yard shooting: Sleeved Wichita single shot action, two 30" Hart 1:8 barrels chambered for 6.5-300 Weatherby, all set in a fiberglass BR stock.

    That gun was a disappointment due to several factors, primarily that brass was less than uniform and Sierra 140 MKs weren't as good as they should have been. I bought the remaining North American supply of Norma 139 grain bullets, but the rifle left a sour taste in my mouth and I quit playing with it.

    I have several match grade bolt guns I've acquired over the years for prairie dog shooting, such as a Hart action single shot that now has a .244 Ackley barrel on it. Switching barrels on such a gun can be done in less than one minute with an internal action wrench and a bench vise--you don't even have to remove the scope or stock.

    I'm now tempted to cut the chambers off the two 6.5 barrels and fit them to the Hart action, chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and/or 6.5-284. The links you provided have given me much food for thought about what is being done currently in the long range game.

    I'm not going to shoot competitively, but I dearly love successful long range plinking. My favorite targets are old tennis balls filled with generic "Tannerite" which I can make for about 50 cents per pound...

    Thanks once again.
    JR--the .500 specialist

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    The 6.5 Creedmoor is now old news...

    The latest and greatest new whiz-bang cartridge for REAL snipers is the 6.5 PRC...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The 6mm Creedmoor seems to be replacing the 6.5 CM currently. Then the new darling is of course the .224 Valyrie cartridge. They are shooting amazingly long, extra high BC, 87 to 90 grain bullets out of the .224 Valkyrie rifles. That gives it some really good ballistics way out past 1,000 meters. It reminds me of the 5.6 Vom Hofe Super Express cartridges that were out before WWII.

  19. #99
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    M-Tecs and John Ross stop with the facts. Also, setting aside the facts, your posts are cogent. Facts and concise posts, cannot be tolerated.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  20. #100
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
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    Aka, the next 6.5 Remington Mag, 7mm and .270 WSM, and RSAUM/RCM anything. It's probably a good cartridge but a new rifle round accomplishing lasting popularity is seriously a once every few decades thing. Look how long it took for the 6.5 Creedmoor to really go mainstream.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check