45-70 with 4350 powder

[Avenger442]

Thanks Guys for the info. Especially Texas, RKJ and Flintnfire.

I've kept looking and found the following.
Bullet Charge
450-500 grain 42.2 grains
350 grain 53.0 grains

The guy using the 350 grain bullet with the 53.0 grains of powder claims 3/4" groups at 100 yards out of a '86 Winchester.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I load 45-70 with IMR 7383 and WC860, both of which are very slow. Work up carefully. Expect black powder velocities and unburnt powder in the barrel.

I have this on my list of things to try (7383 in 45-70)
Jim (Connor) has a post or two about it as well as some articles in the floyd files.

BUT...when I look at the Data posted by Texas by God (below), looking specifically at the numbers (speed and pressure), It's probably not the best thing to use such a slow powder.

Here you go. It may kick a bit.

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[longbow]

Had I found load data for IMR 4350 when I was shooting the .45-70's I would have tried it. The change from IMR4227 to IMR4320 was quite noticeable and a slower powder would have been even better as long as it burned consistently enough.

[Avenger442]

Guys I said at the first of this thread that I wasn't interested in suggestion on what powder to use. Only loads with the 4350 and bullet weights.

Fact is, I have used a couple of better powders than I expect the 4350 to be in 45-70. But I've got it and I don't own any calibers, with the exception of maybe a heavy bullet 30-06, that I can use it with. Don't want to buy a gun just to use the powder. I bought some H1000 cheap in a deal with a guy back a few years ago and found it wasn't good for anything I load. Ended up with some other stuff I knew I could use in the deal. The same story here, except someone told me some time back the 4350 could be used with success in large volume cases like 45-70 with a heavy bullet. So I'm hunting some loads to start with.

This load that I found on the web that gave the guy 3/4" groups at 100 yards sounds interesting. But as I must, and as we all should for info from the web, take that with caution and a grain of salt.

I've been on this forum for several years and have found more knowledgeable people here than any other I have been on. That knowledge having been used and proven several times. And I appreciate that and the help that is available here. So if you have suggestions or outright loading info from a manual on the above please provide it. Thanks

[Texas by God]

Post #16 has outright loading info from a manual. 56 compressed grains of IMR 4350 with a 405 gr bullet or boolit. 3/4" groups with a Win 86 at 100 yds is probably not that common. Your Marlin can get close I'll bet.

[Chill Wills]

IMR-4350 and 4831 produce knock out great accuracy in my 1886 45-70 with the Lyman 457-193.

49 gr of 4350 or 51.5 grs of 4831. These two powders are head and shoulders better than any other smokeless powder I have used and that includes IMR-3031. If I had not shot the 200 yard groups on paper repeatedly, I would not have believed it either. Give it a try.

Texas by God and I both have old old copies of the loading manual. It was a gun store counter handout about 1980 or so. Two things you should know. It states to reduces by 10% the powder charge and work up. That goes without saying, and makes sense. And, I found that using large rifle magnum primers makes a huge difference in accuracy. In my case I used Winchester Magnum primers in Starline cases.

There is next to no unburnt powder in the barrel with either load, and in fact much less than the gold standard SR-4759 loads I used to shoot by the untold thousands.

I have to comment on a few of the naysayers above that clearly never tried it and proclaimed IMR-4350 unfit, ...Well. You get the idea.
-Chill

[osteodoc08]

I have this on my list of things to try (7383 in 45-70)
Jim (Connor) has a post or two about it as well as some articles in the floyd files.

BUT...when I look at the Data posted by Texas by God (below), looking specifically at the numbers (speed and pressure), It's probably not the best thing to use such a slow powder.

My thoughts exactly. Not only that but formulations change and pressure testing has advanced considerably since that manual was printed. While you *may* be able to use it successfully, and I’m sure some have, there seems to be other powders that just perform better, on paper at least. I don’t see Varget listed in that manual, or benchmark or 8208, etc. Times change. Then again, Black Powder is still used successfully as well, so......let us know how your Powder experiment goes. (Meant with sincerity that you’re successful with the powder not disdain)

[RKJ]

Fact is, I have used a couple of better powders than I expect the 4350 to be in 45-70. But I've got it and I don't own any calibers, with the exception of maybe a heavy bullet 30-06, that I can use it with.

Avenger442, If you've got some 30 caliber 165 grain bullets you might try that 4350 in your 06. I really like it in my Ruger 77. I believe it was 57.0 grains under a Sierra BTSP (but I'd check before use, my memory isn't what it used to be). I've got that old DuPont manual myself (but didn't think of it) I'm going to go have a look at it and might try that load myself. I guess old dogs can learn a new trick after all.

[Avenger442]

Avenger442, If you've got some 30 caliber 165 grain bullets you might try that 4350 in your 06. I really like it in my Ruger 77. I believe it was 57.0 grains under a Sierra BTSP (but I'd check before use, my memory isn't what it used to be). I've got that old DuPont manual myself (but didn't think of it) I'm going to go have a look at it and might try that load myself. I guess old dogs can learn a new trick after all.

I do have some 165 grain bullets cast that I use in the .308. And I have all of the dies to load for 30-06. Funny thing is, to be such a popular caliber, I only have one old beat up Remington 30-06. It has had about two inches of the barrel cut off and a re-crown job that looks like someone did it at home. I don't think I could get better than 3" groups with it at 100 yards. So it probably wouldn't be good for checking ammo accuracy. They said it was a good hunting rifle when I got it in one of my deals. It had a Leupold scope on it so that made the deal worth it. That Leupold is on my 45-70 now.

I can pick up a Ruger 30-06 off of Grab A Gun for a little over $300. Pretty much, any of the magnum rifles, that I could use the powder in, are going to run north of $800. But I'm trying to limit my hobby purchases right now. Retired on fixed income and Midsouth Shooters has seen my name too much lately. Have even had to cut out some of the wheelin and dealin I was doing before. I've got a couple of really old 1913-1917 Remington 11 shotguns, the one Browning designed before the Browning A1, good old functioning guns with some nice adjustable chokes on them that I might be able to get rid of. We'll see.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Texas by God posted data from a recognized manual. Bravo! Just what the OP requested. I have used 4350 under a 350 gr gas checked hollow point from both MiHec and Sweede Nelson. I did not notice a lot of unburnet powder. Accuracy was good. Recoil tolerable. A full power load using 3031 ain't fun in a lightweight like the Marlin Cowboy.

[RKJ]

I'm trying to get all my fun things bought before next year as I want to retire next August at 62,although that may be wishful thinking on my part. I want to get a 6.5 CM this year (just for a fun rifle) and I was talking to my oldest son today and we are thinking of trying some long range shooting and that means new glass and no telling what else. Anyway, I've used any of the three 4350's (IMR,H and AA) in that 30/06, .270, 300WM and even 243. I've been pretty pleased with the accuracy. I don't have a Chrono (oh great, that's another thing I've got to buy) I may never get to retire. Let us know how the 4350 does in that 45/70. I just cast some Lee 340 FN for mine and I've got to load and test them.

[Avenger442]

Sat down with a sheet of paper and went through my bills. Paid all of my bills down to a manageable state. I had a State retirement benefit that I had been paying on long enough to be completely vested. Actually retired three months before I was 62. Was worried at first. But have found that what the Director of my department said is true (he retired about two years before me). He said I could pay my bills and have extra even though retirement would cut my income almost in half. Secret from the was paying all my bills off except the house payment and then better management of the money. No credit cards and no loan payments except the house.

I found some 400 grain hollow points I had cast for the 45-70 today. Will let you know how test with the 4350 turn out. But it may be a while. Tied up with other things right now.

[RKJ]

I'm looking forward to the results. I'm messing with a 308 & 223 right now trying to ring them out,but in the next month or so will bring out the 45/70 again. It's a blast to shoot that thing.

[Avenger442]

Big change from the 223. Readjust my shoulder every time

[Texas by God]

We used data from that manual to load .44 magnums with IMR 4320 once and they actually shot great. Not full snort loads but workmanlike.

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[RKJ]

Big change from the 223. Readjust my shoulder every time

It sure is, and I'm one of those that want velocity so go big or go home. I might have to drop that philosophy though, as i does beat the snot out me, and it fast stops being fun. I'm getting good groups at 25 yards but shotgun patterns at 100 with Ramshot Exterminator. I'm bound and determined to make those Lee 340's work with it. I'm going to use this pound of powder I've got and if I can't get it to group at 100, I'm going back to the drawing board or back to my .223.

[hwilliam01]

Found this is in looking for the best powder to try and work up a load for a Hornady 350 grain bullet. After accessing the page look at the 4th one down.

Bill

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...Powder&Source=

[Avenger442]

Found this is in looking for the best powder to try and work up a load for a Hornady 350 grain bullet. After accessing the page look at the 4th one down.

Bill

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/de...Powder&Source=

That's the one I found through another source. I would be more than happy with a 3/4" group at 100 yards with my 45-70. That's one ragged hole in that caliber.

[Maineboy]

I used to shoot the Lyman 458406 with a case full of 5010 in my Marlin and found it quite accurate and pleasant to shoot. I don't recall how many grains I used, but it was a compressed load and I filled the cases with a Lee dipper. The down side was the massive amount of unburned powder that got into the action.
4350 is a step in the right direction. Please let us know how it turns out because I might try it myself.

[Avenger442]

As time allows, hoping to load some today and go to range tomorrow. Weather here has been rain on and off but it looks like the next couple of days might give me a break. And the other things I mentioned before are still causing a delay. But hope to get it done this week.