Some confusion on getting started with swaging .224" on a budget

[JimB..]

Because of the price difference. I am on a budget few here could ever relate to. Even with the hard alloy, I have managed so far to make two very usable swaging dies. Dies within a half a thousandth. It is extremely time consuming but I eventually get the precision needed by using diamond coated grinding tools for the dremel and diamond grit for polishing. Since the bolts are hard to begin with, no final heat treating is necessary.

I can certainly see where avoiding heat treating would be an advantage.

[pertnear]

Here is an excerpt from Richard Corbin's bullet swagging directions that came with his dies. It explains his process in making the "pointing die". Click on image to enlarge.

Attachment 224987

[BlackoutBuilder]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KK93DA...aa_scomp_aapi1

press here

lube will be 50/50 lanolin/castor oil

[BlackoutBuilder]

I like to mount everything up in the Hornady lock n load quick change bushings. They will fit in the lee press.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PD1XAI...533342863&sr=1

[just bill]

While you are researching, check out TATV Canada on you tube , there are some vids on Larry Blackmon's set up and a great tutorial on .22 case bullet making. I have both BT Sniper dies and Blackmon's BSSP set up.
For the .458 SOCOM Brian's offer a veriety options and great versatility . Larry's is great for my .308 set up. Just my $.02. Check out the vids and prices.
Bill

[just bill]

While you are researching, check out TATV Canada on you tube , there are some vids on Larry Blackmon's set up and a great tutorial on .22 case bullet making. I have both BT Sniper dies and Blackmon's BSSP set up.
For the .458 SOCOM Brian's offer a veriety options and great versatility . Larry's is great for my .308 set up. Just my $.02. Check out the vids and prices.
Bill

[BlackoutBuilder]

Blackmon doesnt like the internet and getting in touch with him is like trying to talk to someone in government. Better to go with someone who will answer the phone or an email.

[Hueyville]

Have been casting since I was 13 years old back in the 1970's. Have a huge variety of two and four cavity Ideal, Lyman, RCBS, NOE, Lee and other molds. Learned real fast on the larger Lee molds to install a KAL steel sprue cuttING cam before breaking the factory on large caliber six cavity molds. Shoot an average of 250 to 500 rounds of centerfire handgun per week with most being 45 acp. Have never had issues dropping good range boolits for everything from 9mm to 454 Casull Mag and have gas check molds for high velocity handgun rounds. As few jacketed bullets as I fire from handguns buying deals from estates, people quitting the hobby and sale projectiles actually brings in more jacketed pistol bullets than need except for 380 as own a pair of select fire suppressed M11's that mag dump 30 rounds in under two seconds.

I load a boatload of 7.62×39 160 grain cast using home punched gas checks which make great range ammo to 100 yards, are accurate, moderate recoil and wife shoots her pair of semi custom SKS's more than her pair of 5.7×28 AR 15's or pair semi custom 30 Carbines. She understands cost to load, fact we use bullet traps so recover large percentage of lead and thus shoots her "commie rifles" more than all others combined. Once or twice a week she asks me to police up her brass and bring some more "commie bullets" upstairs. She has a bone disease that doesn't allow excessive recoil and is in a wheelchair as much as using walker or cane.

Years ago I purchased a CH Swage-o-matic with all accessories for swaging 3/4 jacket 30 caliber JSP's. I swage enough boolits with it to keep it from rusting and keep putting them back but shoot more 147 grain milspec projectiles which pay seven cents for in bulk and 168 grain match bullets. Time is a huge factor as have to work and do home health care plus time to shoot and reload. Squishing boolits has not been a huge money saver combined to what I could make working comped to purchasing but am slowing down to four days a week work and since broke neck and back will occasionally miss a week of work following outpatient procedures so getting more interested in volume swaging.

While able to buy 224 bullets at reasonable price currently and have over 30,000 in stock (some IMI M855 left from big purchase pre Y2K and others continue to buy as find deals. My rule is have ten years components in stock at all times for event of quickly executed legislation or extended Sandy Hook type panic. By time Sandy Hook normalized alomg with prices was down to seven years supplies. Was using primers with $9.95 per 1,000 tags at start of panic blew through them, the $12.95 per 1,000 and am using $14.95 per 1,000 primers now. Ran out of Reloader 7 and almost out of Unique during the shortage and have vowed not to let that happen again.

With ability to shoot gas check cast boolits it does limit velocity and as caliber goes down get diminishing returns. Have a partial set of 224 swaging dies and a good method for processing rimfire cases into jackets. Have two core molds and cast my cores using a spare bottom pour furnace keep pure lead in. Have three furnaces so don't have to clean one out and swap alloys. Have a Vulcan heat treat oven that can program multiple steps of heat and cool with maximum temperature range of just over 2,000° F. It's their bigger oven and holds a lot of rimfire cases. Have stainless pin tumbler, vibratory with walnut and another with corn cob.

Have a nice mill, arbor press and decent machine shop as part of my business. Am looking at a Big Boss II or the bigger Lee press for mashing 224 projectiles. Only projectile want to mash in 224 is 62 grain +/- FMJ and possiby 6mm. Otherwise am good with cast in rifles like my 458 SOCOM's except for defensive which like pistol cast gas check are fine for range fodder. Have five progressive presses, five single stage, two shotgun, seven Ideal and Lyman bullet sizers, 16 case trimmers as time spent changing pilots, dies, punches, powder measures, etc is time am not loading. Most of this was purchased before wife became disabled and broke my back and neck so we went from 2 income household to 3/4 income. Not poor but now have to watch disposable income and dropping $900 on a 224 bullet swaging die set and then a big swaging press does not make sense as the $1,500+ will spend can buy 25,000 5.56 projectiles and still have to come up with rimfire cases (hard to shoot enough 22's to feed the jacket punch) so will be buying some, can't recover all lead so that's another expense plus time so would like to figure out what the minimum will need in dies to squish my 224 FMJ's using cast cores and my existing jacket making die.

Have seen the press modifications and believe if someone has the measurements and specifications with some threaded rod and T7 aluminum plate or steel flat bar can handle the press modifications. While squishing 30 caliber FMJ's would be a nice capability if can push out my 224 and 6mm needs would save cash and also have to worry about bigger bullets straining my back more to work the press unless rig a pneumatic or hydraulic machine. I know have rambled but wanted folks to know my full situation, capabilites and needs before answering which direction should take for 62 grain 224 FMJ's and 110 to 115 grain 6mm projectiles. Need to do this on a shoestring and then add equipment as find deals but when see a $900 set of swaging dies it totally turns me off. Have a set of dies for 3/4 jacket .224 soft points have experimented with but not 100% satisfied with product. Also shoot a lot of 6.8 spc II so ability to mash 90 grain 277 bullets would be sweet in all honesty if able to work up a nice 224 FMJ buying rest of my jacketed projectiles while on sale will get me by. My current method makes a bullet that using pure lead with the 3/4 jacket 224's getting bent tips when hit feed ramps of semiautos.

[BT Sniper]

Disregard, got confused who I was responding to there

[BT Sniper]

disregard

[BT Sniper]

I'll be happy to clear up some of the confusion and try to answer a few questions. Short on time at the moment..... will have to get back to you all soon......

BT

[BT Sniper]

Have been casting since I was 13 years old back in the 1970's. Have a huge variety of two and four cavity Ideal, Lyman, RCBS, NOE, Lee and other molds. Learned real fast on the larger Lee molds to install a KAL steel sprue cuttING cam before breaking the factory on large caliber six cavity molds. Shoot an average of 250 to 500 rounds of centerfire handgun per week with most being 45 acp. Have never had issues dropping good range boolits for everything from 9mm to 454 Casull Mag and have gas check molds for high velocity handgun rounds. As few jacketed bullets as I fire from handguns buying deals from estates, people quitting the hobby and sale projectiles actually brings in more jacketed pistol bullets than need except for 380 as own a pair of select fire suppressed M11's that mag dump 30 rounds in under two seconds.

I load a boatload of 7.62×39 160 grain cast using home punched gas checks which make great range ammo to 100 yards, are accurate, moderate recoil and wife shoots her pair of semi custom SKS's more than her pair of 5.7×28 AR 15's or pair semi custom 30 Carbines. She understands cost to load, fact we use bullet traps so recover large percentage of lead and thus shoots her "commie rifles" more than all others combined. Once or twice a week she asks me to police up her brass and bring some more "commie bullets" upstairs. She has a bone disease that doesn't allow excessive recoil and is in a wheelchair as much as using walker or cane.

Years ago I purchased a CH Swage-o-matic with all accessories for swaging 3/4 jacket 30 caliber JSP's. I swage enough boolits with it to keep it from rusting and keep putting them back but shoot more 147 grain milspec projectiles which pay seven cents for in bulk and 168 grain match bullets. Time is a huge factor as have to work and do home health care plus time to shoot and reload. Squishing boolits has not been a huge money saver combined to what I could make working comped to purchasing but am slowing down to four days a week work and since broke neck and back will occasionally miss a week of work following outpatient procedures so getting more interested in volume swaging.

While able to buy 224 bullets at reasonable price currently and have over 30,000 in stock (some IMI M855 left from big purchase pre Y2K and others continue to buy as find deals. My rule is have ten years components in stock at all times for event of quickly executed legislation or extended Sandy Hook type panic. By time Sandy Hook normalized alomg with prices was down to seven years supplies. Was using primers with $9.95 per 1,000 tags at start of panic blew through them, the $12.95 per 1,000 and am using $14.95 per 1,000 primers now. Ran out of Reloader 7 and almost out of Unique during the shortage and have vowed not to let that happen again.

With ability to shoot gas check cast boolits it does limit velocity and as caliber goes down get diminishing returns. Have a partial set of 224 swaging dies and a good method for processing rimfire cases into jackets. Have two core molds and cast my cores using a spare bottom pour furnace keep pure lead in. Have three furnaces so don't have to clean one out and swap alloys. Have a Vulcan heat treat oven that can program multiple steps of heat and cool with maximum temperature range of just over 2,000° F. It's their bigger oven and holds a lot of rimfire cases. Have stainless pin tumbler, vibratory with walnut and another with corn cob.

Have a nice mill, arbor press and decent machine shop as part of my business. Am looking at a Big Boss II or the bigger Lee press for mashing 224 projectiles. Only projectile want to mash in 224 is 62 grain +/- FMJ and possiby 6mm. Otherwise am good with cast in rifles like my 458 SOCOM's except for defensive which like pistol cast gas check are fine for range fodder. Have five progressive presses, five single stage, two shotgun, seven Ideal and Lyman bullet sizers, 16 case trimmers as time spent changing pilots, dies, punches, powder measures, etc is time am not loading. Most of this was purchased before wife became disabled and broke my back and neck so we went from 2 income household to 3/4 income. Not poor but now have to watch disposable income and dropping $900 on a 224 bullet swaging die set and then a big swaging press does not make sense as the $1,500+ will spend can buy 25,000 5.56 projectiles and still have to come up with rimfire cases (hard to shoot enough 22's to feed the jacket punch) so will be buying some, can't recover all lead so that's another expense plus time so would like to figure out what the minimum will need in dies to squish my 224 FMJ's using cast cores and my existing jacket making die.

Have seen the press modifications and believe if someone has the measurements and specifications with some threaded rod and T7 aluminum plate or steel flat bar can handle the press modifications. While squishing 30 caliber FMJ's would be a nice capability if can push out my 224 and 6mm needs would save cash and also have to worry about bigger bullets straining my back more to work the press unless rig a pneumatic or hydraulic machine. I know have rambled but wanted folks to know my full situation, capabilites and needs before answering which direction should take for 62 grain 224 FMJ's and 110 to 115 grain 6mm projectiles. Need to do this on a shoestring and then add equipment as find deals but when see a $900 set of swaging dies it totally turns me off. Have a set of dies for 3/4 jacket .224 soft points have experimented with but not 100% satisfied with product. Also shoot a lot of 6.8 spc II so ability to mash 90 grain 277 bullets would be sweet in all honesty if able to work up a nice 224 FMJ buying rest of my jacketed projectiles while on sale will get me by. My current method makes a bullet that using pure lead with the 3/4 jacket 224's getting bent tips when hit feed ramps of semiautos.

I confused you for the original author of this post. Do you have the same questions or anything we can help out with?


What I myself find some what interesting in that one can invest so much money into their arsenal yet be "turned off" by the cost of a quality set of swage dies.

As you said and quoted below.....

"Need to do this on a shoestring and then add equipment as find deals but when see a $900 set of swaging dies it totally turns me off."

I personally don't get "turned off" but I must bring attention to the fact that HOLY SHEEP! you must have nearly $50,000 worth of investment in your arsenal there, maybe more? Selling any one of those items would allow you more then enough money to invest in any brand name quality set of swage dies you wish.

Maybe some of you guys can "help me" clear some confusion as to why us shooters have no problem paying for top of the line custom riffles toped with expensive scopes, Dillon progressive presses for each caliber we shoot, enough inventory of reloading supplies to last the next 10 year shortage, etc. etc. etc. ........ yet ........ think that a quality set of swage dies shouldn't cost any more then a set of Lee reloading dies?

I guess I must admit I thought Corbin was expensive too until I attempted to make my own! When you are making something for yourself you really don't pay attention to the hours of labor it takes to make something because it is new and exciting to be making something for yourself and you know that when you succeed you "should" be saving yourself the cost of actually buying the Corbin set in the first place. This should bring a smile to anyone that has ever made something rather then buy it to "save money." Yes quite possibly money was saved, or not, quite possibly the labor was justified in the idea we where having fun making it our self and can take comfort in knowing that our efforts will be rewarded "if" and "when" we succeed.

Then again we all have different levels of background so one's starting point can be different from the next. I had no experience so it took me a long time and a lot of money. Luckily I had a little of both and I "had to" make it work as a business or else get a desk job that I didn't want. There is the saying.... something about necessity brings out .....?

I found it was possible to make a successful set of dies from tooling I made myself and was not concerned with how long it took because it was for me...... but...... try to make 100 of these sets of dies all to exact tolerances to allow customers to turn scrap brass into perfect bullets and suddenly........ well tooling and cost of business gets expensive. Those costs are directly related to the cost of the dies of course. How many hours do you think it takes to make a set of 22 cal dies to turn scrap 22lr brass into match grade bullets? How much cost do you suppose there is in tooling and machinery? How much in material and how much in the cost of getting these dies heat treated or Nitride processed? Why do you think Lee doesn't make swage dies?

Anyway point being, there can be a lot of labor involved in making these dies and I'm not sure any one of the manufactures of these dies are making much per hour...... except maybe the top end benchrest swage die makers? But they are catering to customers that do not mind paying $4,000 or a lot more for a set of quality swage dies if it means they will shoot smaller groups, heck these guys are not even using scrap brass! They take the easy route and use expensive J-4 jackets that form a lot easier then those of use using scrap brass!

Ah! well enough for now, I'm late getting my girls to lunch......

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

p.s. oh.... there is tooling that can make quality 22 cal bullets as mentioned above for under the price mentioned in quoted post.

p.s.s. OH! and I forgot to mention we are in a time of "excess" now in our shooting needs, shelves are stocked with bullets, powder and ammo, imagine the next possible shortage or possible regulations from those that may attempt to regulate our shooting sport in the future...... then one just might find the investment of quality swage dies to be a lot more valuable! Ask any of us that where making our own during the last shortage!

p.s.s.s. do you think the swage dies should continue to cost what little they do now when/if the next shortage hits? Selling swage dies now is like trying to sell ice in January but ........

[Willbird]

As far as heat treat goes, these guys will heat treat reloading die sized parts.

http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

I emailed them and asked, they said no problem, the prices are very reasonable.

As far as costs for products, there is always a "big deal" with that...I fit and chamber my own rifle barrels, always have, never paid a person to do one yet, even do a few for other people. Every service has a price that the free market sets.

I worked in a shop that had 30 people working full time doing nothing but make cold header dies and tooling for them. Some of the cost was in the machinery needed, some of it was in knowing how to make the parts.

They would find all but the design and the final polish of a swage die to be childs play...as far as making 100 or 1,000 right to spec with a 4 micro inch polish...that is what they do day in day out, HSS, A2, D2, H13, Tungsten carbide, no problem.

The issue is that it is a low volume item...if one made 1,000 swage die sets all the same...it might take a LONG time to sell them .

Bill

[Hueyville]

Warning: Partly Off Topic Long Post Reply

That is an impressive inventory of fine guns, ammo, reloading components, tumblers, kiln, molds and progressive presses. I bet some of them where pretty expensive. I bet some of those awesome semi autos rock some impressive scopes too! Nightforce? Trijicon?

How much does it cost for a semi custom sks, 5.7x28, 458SoCom, 30 Carbine and suppressed M11s?

You already have a lot of the tooling necessary to swage great bullets and there are many here that can help, myself included (obviously).

I'll help clear up some of the confusion for you and be happy to answer any questions.

BT

Do not own any Nightforce Scopes or Trijicon. Do have some decent night vision and darn good lightweight armor. Have one March scope on my 7mm Practical turn bolt but until about three or four years ago mostly bought Leupold or U.S. made Burris. Have sent some nicer Leupolds into their custom shop for Horus reticles to be installed. When Burris began importing scopes I initially tried to not buy the imports but then began buying their red dots and couldn't avoid it. My favorite red dots are aluminum chassis C More because able to swap dot modules to whichever size need for gun they migrate to. When Burris discontinued the XTS-135 red dots for $99 purchased a dozen. Now have dealer status for Vortex which buy a lot of as well as SIG optics. When Burris replaced the Fastfire II's with III's was able to make a powerbuy. Have been a careful and frugal collector since age 11. Stated reloading at age 12 then purchased a Lee turret press, four sets of dies, two double cavity Lyman molds, two single cavity Lee molds, RCBS scale & powder measure at age 13. Already had an after school/weekend job plus worked full time summers. By age 16 owned a fairly decent reloading setup (took over my dad's home office) and more firearms than many adults.

Kept a job in college and first quarter of Freshman year purchased a left handed Randall 1911 and ordered a set of matching right/left hand Randall Curtis E LeMays. "Loaned" my dad the money senior year of high school to set up a Trust naming me as heir and Trustee plus buy the pair of M11's with Sionics suppressors. Then Junior year of college "loaned" him the money to buy a 12.5" Ruger AC556 factory folder with a fun switch to put in the Trust. Kept going to school, working campus job, weekend job, summer job and when finished moved back home with parents and started a business. Had no rent, no grocery bill, drove the car parents bought me used but nice for college and borrowed dad's truck to work in. Lived at home and worked so every Friday could take my paycheck to the gun shop and endorse it over. Owner would look at my tab, ask me how much I needed for the week then apply the rest toward my tab. Any gun I wanted he let me walk out and put on the tab. When moved out of parents into own place had a safe full of firearms, first progressive, two single stage and the original Lee turret press plus more and the casting inventory of a small local commercial bullet casting company that closed up when owner got sick. The nice gentleman taught me a lot while helped him for free an evening or two a week and sold me his stuff for almost nothing when gave it up.

At one time a local "dry goods" store was selling SKS's with 600 round tin of steel core corrosive ammo for $79, SKS-M's (the now rare detachable magazine SKS) with 600 rounds for $99 and AK's with three mags and 600 rounds for $129. Had 75 round drum mags for $24.99, 30 round mags for $4.99 and 20 round fixed metal box mags for SKS at $14.99. For just over two years until the Bush Ban went into effect purchased a combloc rifle every Friday after wrote paychecks. SKS the SKS-M, another SKS followed by an AK thus took an AK and SKS-M home and two SKS's every month plus 2,400 rounds of ammo, a 20 round SKS mag and 75 round AK drum. Try that for almost 30 months straight. Stacked them in basement like firewood.

For twenty years would commission one custom rifle per year. When new piece of reloading equipment came out I bought it. Only thing never really got big into was swaging, just odd estate pieces and deals tripped across. Started my own NFA Firearms Trust took over Dads as Trustee and Heir plus have a new 41F compliant Trust so the pre 41F Trusts are not required to be brought to 41F compliance when add new items. A transferable Form 4 M11 with original Sionics suppressor runs $5,000 to $8,000 currently and a Ruger AC556 GB factory folder runs $7,500 to $10,000 based on condition but mine were purchased in the 1980's before Form 4 transferable machine gun prices went to the sky.

For over twenty years would commission one custom bolt action rifle per year. Also was buying Colt SP1's when average new in box price was $450 to $500. Was buying Pythons when they were $595.00 new off the shelf, Colt Diamondbacks (wife's favorite wheel gun), 1st and 2nd edition Cobras and an Anaconda when they could hardly give them away. It's being consistent and basically always having a gun on layaway or ready to pop on a deal as it is offered. Being willing to buy an entire estate then part out what don't need or want helps keep inventory growing.

Have people come in all the time with a Smith M&P 15 without forward assist and a blem Palmetto forward assist upper want swapped out. Also want milspec forearms and front sight towers swapped for low profile gas blocks and free float handguards, will have low round count rifle or buy one off the rack wanting the barrel swapped, custom triggers swapped in for the milspec, OEM stocks, pistol grips, etc swapped for aftermarket. More than half leave happy and leave thier milspec/OEM parts saying they have no use for them so separate into piles and as a pile gets enough parts add a lower, rear sight plus a few springs and pins. Properly square front of receiver, run fire control parts across my Power Custom Hammer & Sear jig to square and hone all engagement surcaces, drop in a $9 JP 3.5 Enhanced Reliability spring kit, drill a hole in front sight tower, tap it then add hardened screw so it now has adjustable gas and turn out an AR 15 with maximum of $100 invested not counting an optic.

Used to call Mag Tactical every Thursday and buy all their blems for that week at $39. Right before they bankrupted was offered a quantity purchase at $20 each for their billet magnesium lowers. After the court dealt with their bankruptcy Fostech purchased all their inventory and had Centerfire Systems selling the Mag Tactical billet lowers three for $99 so added six to twelve to every order. Before it was over and now it's Fostech Fightlite managed to put back over 100 of the lowers at an average cost of just under $30 each. End of 2015 between Christmas and Dec 31 saw more AR deals than ever. Palmetto put their $289 Stainless 5.56 Wylde 18" 1:8 CHF barrels on sale for $79 and managed to put a pile back. Built several and still have five in barrel locker. Have deals with three major barrel vendors to buy cosmetic blems and mismarked units. Recently purchased a pair of 18" 1:8 barrels marked 1:7 along with a pair of heavy varmint profile 24" 1:12 tubes marked 1:8 which retail from $350 to $390 for $100 each. Get boxes of barrels like that, have another premium vendor sells their blems/mismarks for $70 to $90 each if buy all they have. Purchased a pair of 26" AR 10 barrels in 6XC for $100 each along with pair of custom built AR 10 side charging complete uppers for $250. Now have AR 15's in 5.7×28, 223/5.56/Wylde, TAC Six, 6.8 spc II, 270 AR and 458 SOCOM plus AR 10's in 6XC, 7.62 NATO and 338 Federal with parts to build another pair when decide on cartridge as almost always build in twins.

Right before Las Vegas bought five Franklin Gen 3 binary triggers for $290 each then day after they sold me three more at that price and by end of week everyone was selling them for $450 with a waiting list. At same time sold three Slidefire stocks for $1,100 as had built one bump fire rifle based on a powerbuy and didn't like it so the extra units never were opened. From my teens never left Walmart withot a brick of their cheapest rimfire. For years it was Federal Champion then switched to Remington Thunderbolts. When they began selling the 100 round boxes of field & skeet loads added a box to every buggy then when the 325 round cartons of Federal Automatch showed up had to add those. One to two trips to Wally World per week and piled up some rimfire as personally shoot match grade rimfire 75% of the time. During Sandy Hook was peeling $7.95 price tags off and selling bricks for $100 but continued to keep six Boy Scout Troops and one church youth group shooting for free. Fronted a lot of bricks to friends under agreement would replace when stock returned and prices normalized. Was selling my $79 SKS's for $795 with 600 round tin of ammo. Was selling the preban AK's in states with state laws only allowing preban with features for good money.

I am a buyer, trader, hoarder and seller which has allowed me to grow my collection over a lifetime except for a panic when diagnosed with brain cancer. Freaked out about leaving wife with huge amount of **** to try and deal with from a wheelchair so sold over 100 guns. Won't ever do that again as learned doctors don't have the final say when die, thats God's job and he is a gracious God. Have managed to use the Sandy Hook and cancer panic money to pay a lot of medical bills and put about half the guns sold back but items like the Winchester 1886 collection are gone but who needs rifles can't shoot without risking a $200 to $500 reduction in value everytime they are handled?

As to tools, God has blessed my business as well. I call myself a caretaker of his creations and he has allowed me to care for much. Added a machine shop just to keep from having to outsource so much work when restoring antique tractors, motorcycles and building firearms. Have to keep a full steel and sheetmetal fabrication shop as well as woodworking and paint shop. Have a 8"×50"×100" CNC router can cut anything from foam to acrylics/polycarbonates, wood, brass, bronze and aluminum. Run a lot of 6061 T6 as well as T7 aluminum in sheets up to two inches if have to but normally 1/2" T6 is most I can cut with small and precise detail as with thicker non ferrous metals longer the end mill the larger diameter it has to be or side pressure even at low feed rates will snap long & skinny bits. We have stick, MIG, TIG and spool gun welders but recently began downsizing after my machinist passed away and haven't been able to replace him. Got lucky and sold our 60" tool room lathe and Bridgeport to a guy who lives closer to my house than my business is and whenever need a part done just have to drop it by with a drawing and he turns it out and charges me nothing as discounted the machines for that agreement. Considering selling my 55 foot High Ranger bucket truck and all equipment on it as tired of working 30' to 60' in the air running a welder in August or trying to not break acrylics when it's below freezing.

Have over 50 state and federal trade licenses and do everything from large lighted signs, LED message panels, cell phone and public service radio tower work, do explosive environments electrical, HVAC including low pressure ammonia systems, have done a pile of emergency power backup systems work including batteries, rectifiers and generators for Ma Bell along with tower work, green energy solutions, ballistic barriers for cash teller windows, private corporations and now a lot of churches. Work on air traffic control systems, radar though do more hobby stuff hacking marine radars into ground and ground to air systems than paid radar work. Do custom paint and light custom work on others motorcycles plus total restorations and restomods for myself and wife. Basically any tool have ever had to rent twice or needed have purchased. Have full set of spark proof beryllium hand tools and explosive environments rated test meters, analyzers for RFI and other FCC sight testing to make sure nothing harmful beyond allowed emissions is being transmitted and other services not interfered with. As a small business owner who always wants to do quality work and has to roll with a changing economy, clients and evolving services have to always be ready to follow any door opened where able to make an honest and legal living. In addition to 4,000 square feet of shop full of tools have one room in our offices for electronics, another for building AR 15's and AR 10's and a third office for building FN FAL's. At home have a shop where do my 1911 and 10/22 builds.

Yes have more tools than many can even comprehend from torque wrenches calibrated in inch/ounces to inch/pounds, newton/meters, insulated electrical torque wrenches and even one big torque wrench with a ten foot handle rated for 2,000 ft/lbs plus a calibrated 4:1 torque multiplier so can torque bolts up to 8,000 ft/lbs. It's tools like the heat treating oven and other equipment have no idea how it all collected around me. While hear of some people building AR 15's using a Chinese vice, $19 holding fixture and a $20 armorers wrench without squaring receivers and not even using a torque wrench when it takes me a minimum of $2k in tools to do the job right is one reason am slightly scared to jump too deep into bullet swaging. The small amount of swaging equipment I have is stuff that showed up in boxes when purchased piles of stuff from someone. Over the years of it accidentally finding it's way home with me can swage a useable 30 caliber soft point, been swaging all my rimfire cases into jackets and just pouring in a bucket and all the core molds sit on a shelf. Have the dies for my CH Swage-o-matic to mash 224 3/4 jacket soft points very similar in design to my 30 caliber they shoot like **** in repeaters as the soft tips bend when bolt slams them into feed ramps so just keep making jackets and figured some day would find a deal and be able to go farther.

Had I decided swaging was an additional hobby wanted to take seriously 20 years ago would have it all and be the expert by now. But with disabled wife, age creeping up on me and sticker shock as have been shopping equipment am concerned to jump fully into the hobby in manner will have the right equipment that doesn't stress my broken back and neck. Appears am several thousand dollars from mashing the bullets would like to make. Shoot a lot of .224, .243, .257, .277, .284, .308 and .312 pills. When look at $900 die sets per caliber and then wire cutters, presses and know there are a ton of other little widgets will need am afraid will be a $10,000 adventure before am properly tooled up. Why I want to sneak into 224 FMJ projectiles which are my most shot and seem to be able to use modified reloading presses and minimal tooling to get the job done. Have three radar systems in basement ripped apart diagnosing to order parts for and another antique Harley Davidson on the lift at work so a potentially expensive tool up has me a little fearful to jump in the water before know how deep and cold it is. How many projectiles pays for the setup? About to run 20,000 5.56 once fired Lake City cases but already have the pills to stuff in them half purchased in 1999. This run will last me a couple or three years then will be time to stuff them again. Will it be cheaper to start mashing bullets now or start shopping sales on manufacturer made projectiles? Truthfully my most used "expensive" projectiles are .277 as now have 15 AR's in 6.8 spc II which has become my favorite combat style cartridge along with 6.5 Creedmore.

[BT Sniper]

Impressive and a lot of thinking ahead in all those purchases, kind of like the stock market from the sounds of it, except from the sounds of it you were able to buy and sell at the right times. Pretty smart.

I got a little side tracked there myself this morning, on my soap box again, haven't been shooting since April! It is so hot and dry here in the PNW everything is closed down in the forests. I'm a bit stir crazy without being able to go to my shooting spots, but taking family to an open range this weekend for a bit of stress relief.

Sorry to the OP for side tracking this thread a bit, I'll let it get back on track and we can discuss making 22 cal bullets again.

Swage on!

Brian

[Hickory]

Thanks for the info all. Sounds like this is an adventure to be had next time I have $1000 extra lying around.

In this day and age a $1000 or even $2000 is not that much money.
People will not hesitate to spend 18-20 thousand dollars on a new vehicle that will only be a memory in 15 years.
A good quality swagging outfit will last for generations.

[Hueyville]

As to shooting in the hot sun having a 60 foot indoor air conditioned range at work can shoot up to 7.62×39 is great as can take shooting breaks at work anytime the mood strikes and when work in the field have all sorts of opportunities to run a 100 or so rounds on some sites. At home we just walk on back deck and have bullet traps at 25, 50 and 75 yards which will handle 5.56 and 6.8 spc II along with most AR 15 cartridges. Can shoot till break a sweat then come inside and cool off.


Gives me the opportunity to shoot a lot. Work church security on Sundays and Wednesdays so each Saturday my rule is run minimum of 75 rounds of major power factor 200 grain 45 acp through my primary then 25 through backup 1911 then clean and lube both pistols. Because seen so many malfunctions at competitions right after someone cleaned a gun and didn't quite get all together perfect when finish my Saturday tune up pull one ten round magazine of my carry ammo and run six rounds through primary then four through backup to ensure assembled correctly, sights are perfect then one pass with patch down bore and wipe down with clean oily rag.


On work days carry a SIG 2022 or 2022 Tacops TB in 40 Smith so shoot at least 50 rounds per week through the SIG work carry and on average shoot 250 to 350 rounds of cast through mix of Hi Powers, mix of wheel guns but mostly 1911's either before start work day if going into field, during lunch or end of day. Feel blessed that have an indoor facility at work and outdoor at home if only 75 yards.


As to only $1,000 to $2,000 to start serious swaging when look at presses, dies to,draw jackets, mash cores then complete the bullet, put cannelures on one's that need them, set up for a half dozen or so calibers and couple style bullets in each am looking at a $10,000 buy in to get serious and unsure if want to spend that as looking at 60. Can buy a lot of factory projectiles for $10k on top of the hoard. Why am trying to find the easiest and reasonably ecinomical way to make a nice 62ish grain 224 FMJ and then see how much time it takes and materials then do some math and see if my time is better spent reloading, shooting and working or is bullet mashing that big of a savings for me. I was just going to restore one antique Harley then had seven in line. If fall in this rabbit hole will need all the toys before it's over and to be able to use them will have to do it soon as the clock is not on my side.


My little CH Swage-o-matic is a toy, not a real bullet making machine. Have learned that so need to try 224 then maybe 243 using as much equipment already have for economics and decide if swaging makes sense. I can fly with a four or six cavity boolit mold and run without checks in pistols and with checks for low velocity rifle rounds. Have dropped my hot rod and antique tractor hobby due to amount of time involved so need to look at what it costs but more importantly how much time it takes to swage a pile of projectiles and see if it makes sense to rob time from the reloading bench and range to swage or just keep ordering bulk projectiles.

[Hueyville]

Last Rambling Post on Life & Swaging Concerns:
Created some confusion folks, sorry for that. A pet peeve of mine is people starting a new thread whenever have a question. Of course long posts a.k.a. "Walls of Text" bother others but am detail oriented and type fast. Apologies again... On some groups see same question asked every time it's pushed off page one. Three groups participate have a dozen or more threads per year just on 6.8 magazines. Question asked, beat to death, pushes off page 1, asked again few weeks later rather than person looking at page two. Entire cycle repeats then can look back finding dozens of threads on same subject with same info. Wanted to ask about swaging 62 grain 224 FMJ bullets on the cheap, saw existing thread Confusion With Getting Started Swaging 224 On A Budget put my similar question in existing thread, tried to explain my capabilities and goals so folks could give appropriate advice for situation.

In future will be more clear or begin new thread. Idea of swaging is very attractive just need to be fully informed on tools need to do job properly. Want to run math on cost to buy equipment versus buying bullets over my life expectancy before jumping neck deep in another hobby when trying to reduce some of the more physically demanding and costly hobbies now. Sold my steam engines (including a steam traction engine), antique tractors and hot rods. Wife and I are discussing how many of the seven antique Harleys have disassembled in boxes will restore if more than one on lift along with which motorcycles to keep for ever and which to sell. Have more motorcycles than can ride often enough to keep seals happy and oil from bleeding out of bearings/cylinder heads due to sitting.

Had to retire from high altitude mountaineering in 2011 after breaking spine for third time along with bicycling, backpacking, huge cutback in rock climbing along with technical ice climbing. Am 55 years old, male has 84 year life expectancy, most usually spend last five years of life in doctors offices or caring for spouse which I am already doing due to her severe bone disease. Can I recoup cost of swaging equipment over say 20 years compared to buying projectiles? At age where expense versus reward is something to consider especially when wifes bone meds are $3,000 per month and not covered by insurance which is reason can't retire totally.

Shoot average of 50 to 300 assorted 224 projectiles per week (22 Hornet, 223 Rem/5.56/Wylde, 22 Nosler, 22-250, 22 CHeetah) thus need 36 to 69 grain 224 bullets regularly but 60% are 62 grain BTHP plate & silhouette poppers along with practice for shooting standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, off barriers and from bench. Monday was on a jobsite where logging crew had just finished and graders not arrived yet. Was able to run 150 rounds from my favorite 5.56 CQB rifle (62 grain Hornady BTHP) and 100 through one of my favorite 6.8 general purpose rifles (90 grain Speer TNT). That is nature of my shooting, between regular practice with handguns at work range always have a couple rifles, couple of handguns and a few cans of ammo when in the field in case pass near a range or opportunity like had Monday crops up shooting stumps and rocks on a 250 acre freshly cut tract.

Slowing down with work to allow more time to care for wife and enjoy life thus have more time to shoot but with less work have less disposable income. Plan things and try my best to go in only if makes fiscal sense or the fun factor covers the cost. Swaging needs to be a fiscally sound endeavor that helps me shoot more rather than suck time and money away from trigger time. Of course have plenty of long nights during winter and the reduction of time on the clock at work should make up for time pulling handles several extra times per round downrange. If able to swage a good 62 grain 224 FMJ will account for large portion of total rifle needs and create most savings thus why have used this thread and tried to be very descriptive of current cababilities, equipment and use. Can I swage a 69 grain BTHP bullet to consistency of the Sierra Match King? That would be huge.

Right now MidSouth has 62 grain Hornady BTHP at $142.29 per 1,500 which is nine cents each. Have free shipping coupon so for $996 can buy 10,500 of these bullets which for plinking and paper punching shoot reasonably. When look at a set of full 224 swaging dies they seem to be roughly the same price without a press. $500 for an entry level press and expect a few other widgets will run up to $2,000 real fast for mashing one cartridge if understand equipment am looking at (I may be totally missing the boat) can buy 20,000 projectiles for proper setup cost to swage just 224. Still have the equipment after bullets are down range if mash myself but how much time will I invest in making them as keeping reloading presses running is time consuming at volume wife and I shoot. It's not unheard of for us to run a combined 1,000 rounds in a week or 1,000 rounds in a day.

The Hornady 22 Caliber .224 Diameter 62 Grain BTHP With Cannelure bullets are an exceptional choice for hunters and bench shooters alike. These .224 62 Grain BTHP With Cannelure angle and length of the boattail is unique and optimized. The .224 Diameter 62 Grain BTHP With Cannelure geometric profile works to produce low drag and flatter trajectories.*

Specifications and Features:*
.224 Diameter, Boat Tail Hollow Point, 0.862" Long, Sectional Density 0.177, Ballistic Coeficient (G1) 0.270

So buying a press, dies, other necessary tools can I swage a bullet that will run as well as these do? (6,000 left on bench to stuff & another 15,000 just a few key strokes from shipping) How much will the correct equipment cost and how long does the process take? Equipment lasting generations is no consequence as have no kids and my heirs can't get their heads out of phones or Facebook long enough for me to teach them to use it. Know they are getting the guns and reloading but not bothered to even ask questions.

Looked at Corbin site again and have their 224 die set for using rimfire cases on sale at $886. They say it will swage a 50 to 60 grain flat base spire point on standard reloading press. Also the thin jackets are kind on bore but past 3,100 fps can disentigrate. My 22 CHeetah which likes 50 to 53 grain bullets has many light jacketed bullets disentigrate at its 4,000+ fps velocity. Will my 22-250's, 22 Noslers and other hotrod 224 rifles cause rimfire based 224 projectiles to come unglued in flight? If buy a real swaging press to reduce stress on my spine to swage 224 projectiles and decide to move into other cartridges is it going to cost $1,500ish per caliber for jacket drawing and bullet swaging dies? Add dies to make a nice 224 bullet and say .277 plus .308 which are most used; going to set me back how much per caliber to draw jackets plus swage a variety of weights and base/tip designs? Is my broken neck, thoracic spine and lumbar going to require a high leverage press to use for rimfire jacketed 224's?

[Willbird]

The other aspect is that the time put into swaging bullets is "free" in one way, but not so in another. If you truly ENJOY it then it is one thing. But in my case I can volunteer for some OT at work and just buy bullets when it comes it .224.

If you take care of tools they retain a lot of value.....the Dillon RL1050 as one example, properly cared for and used for a decade it still retains a huge amount of it's purchase price in value. Sure it seems "expensive" up front....but it has retained value as long as you care for it properly.

Bill

[Hueyville]

Bought a Dillon 650 before Sandy Hook and had not taken out of box when panic hit and suddenly Dillon had a two month wait list. Sold it for $200 more than paid to someone who had never reloaded. My guess is he either still has boxed, has tried using to point of frustration or sold and took his loss. Know good tools hold their value and if buy a good swaging press and dies worst case is get most of my investment back in a decade or so.

Learning that rimfire jacketed projectiles have a speed limit and 60 grain max weight is concerning but not a deal breaker. Have the jacket swaging die and plenty of jackets swaged. Two core molds so think all I need is a final bullet swaging die to try and chuck it in my heaviest single stage press. Is this correct? A 60 grain bullet would meet a lot of needs for 5.56 plinking. I enjoy casting and handloads almost as much as shooting. Bet I will enjoy swaging if back and neck don't complain. Have no issues running 5.56 and 7.62×51 through a Dillon machine. Don't know how much increased leverage is involved with good swaging rig.