Some confusion on getting started with swaging .224" on a budget

[BHuij]

If I wanted to get into swaging my own .224" projectiles using spent .22LR for jackets, what equipment would I need to buy to do so on the smallest possible budget?

I have a lot more time than money at this phase in my life, so please make recommendations based on that assumption.

As near as my research has been able to gather, I need:

1. Some way to anneal the casings after I clean them (toaster oven doesn't get me to 800 degrees F)
2. A die to remove the rim from the 22LR case
3. A die to swage the lead core to the correct shape
4. A die to insert the lead core into the jacket
5. A die to form the point in the jacket and finish the bullet

I already have a reloading press (Lee Challenger single stage), and there seems to be no consensus on whether this press will work or not.

Am I missing anything? Is there any way to obtain these dies short of spending several hundred bucks for Corbin or Blackmon ones?

One other question--

There is a lot of disagreement on whether .22LR cases are made of brass or copper (sure look like brass to me...), and whether jackets made from brass will degrade barrel life faster than those made from copper. If anyone can chime in with a definitive answer here that would be great.

[MUSTANG]

Welcome to the addiction.

(1) You can anneal the cases in an oven on "Self Clean", or on a small diameter nail with the case held in a propane burner flame. A debate continues (for years) on anneal before or after Derimming the 22LR case, I Anneal after derimming.

(2) Your principal choices in dies are BTSniper (Vendor Sponsor this site), Corbin (Dave), Richard Corbin, Blockman, or an e-bay fly by vendor.

(3) I opt for a true swage press (Corbin in my case); but lots of people use Lee, RCBS, and other presses (with 7/8 thread dies). You pay your money - you take your choice. Contact BT Sniper concerning his thoughts on the Lee Press you have. Brian make excellent quality products and they are mostly tailored to conventional presses (I have several of his products and no complaints(.

Lastly: 22LR cases are brass (about 70% copper and 30% Zink). Been many decades since 22LR cases were made from Copper.

[BlackoutBuilder]

The classic cast is what you will be looking at, the little aluminum one you have really isnt going to get it done. BT modifies the linkage on the LEE presses for better leverage, it's worth your time. And get the auto eject option, you will want that. Get ahold of BT Sniper for the set, you will need about 900 bucks to get it going. See this thread for pricing. Below is a link to a video showing how all of it works. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ity-swage-dies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zw0TlMGvRo

22lr is brass.. Anneal after de rimming

[BlackoutBuilder]

Also, I would get the threaded ram top for the press, with the threaded base punches.

[BHuij]

Thanks for the info all. Sounds like this is an adventure to be had next time I have $1000 extra lying around.

Don't suppose there are plans for dies out there anywhere are there? I have a buddy who is a machinist and has helped me make my own dies in the past. I'm sure these guys' products are awesome, but if I can get the same result machining dies myself for 1/10th the cost...

[BlackoutBuilder]

You could look into just buying a point form die, and make your own core seater and mold. You'll still need a derimming die, those are available on Ebay. I would question this way however, as you won't likely get the quality and customer support that you will get from BT or Corbin. With BT Sniper, you can make payments too, it's the only way I could get mine. I got the 22-223 set that way, am currently paying down a .30 premium set, and as soon as those get done, I plan on getting the 9mm-40 one step die set. Good luck.

[BHuij]

Yeah I would be comfortable machining my own mold for slugs, or just cutting lead wire to length. Any reason I would need to use pure lead? I have lots of SOWW and COWW...

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a de-rimming die just smash the rim down to the same diameter as the rest of the .22LR case? Any reason the die for that would be anything more than just a hole reamed out to the correct diameter?

[JimB..]

Being on a tight budget, keep in mind how much you really shoot. You can buy more than 10,000 commercial 55gr bullets for what it’ll cost you to start swaging them.

I am setup for swaging, and will get started eventually, but it isn’t gonna save me any money.

[BlackoutBuilder]

The wheel weights are going to be a little too hard. You could very well crack the dies, and it would make the operation a lot more difficult. If I recall correctly, pure lead flows at about 12,000psi. Alloys of course, would take much more force. I had to buy pure lead, and mixed it with my wheel weights, about half and half. I got 10.5 brinell out of the batch, and it's about as hard as I'd want to go.

The de rimming die unrolls the rim. If you have the correct diameter, you can make a die of course, but it has to be hardened properly, which will change the dimensions a bit, and then polished. You will have to predict how much these numbers are going to change and bore the hole accordingly. I'm not sure what the angle of the die mouth should be, but you need a cone shape or champher to help get the brass started down the hole.

http://www.corbins.com/hb9-text.htm

It's possible to make your own dies yes, but you will probably spend as much or more in tooling and time than it would take to just make a few payments and be done in a couple months. Just about everything you need to know about how swaging bullets is done can be found in Corbins handbook of swaging. It's a long read, but very informative. I did this, and read through all of the instruction manuals on Corbins dies before I got started as well as any video I could find.

Like you, I was at first taken aback at the startup costs involved, and considered buying my own tooling and making my own set, but wisdom and experience prevailed, and I just bought them. I know that if I wanted to, I could make my own, but this way was faster and much more efficient. I can also call up BT if I need to and ask questions from him with his many years of experience. He has already gone through the trial and errors, time and costs involved that I would have to go through, had I chosen to make my own dies. Not much point in re inventing the wheel. I dont mind paying a good man for his good products and valuable experience. I'm disabled, and on a fixed income. This isnt an easy thing for me to do, to make large payments out of a very small income, but I like to shoot, and it does give me a nice hobby. Guns are what i do, and once paid for, I wont have to pay again unless I break something.

Go ahead and read up a bit, see whats involved. Watch the videos that are available, mine arent even monetized, it's not like i'm making anything off of you. I put up the videos to help out people who like me, wanted to learn how to do this. As I get more tooling, I'll be releasing more videos showing step by step how this is done.

Actual dimensions of dies and components are simply unavailable. We are sworn to not ever put up any critical information about the dies online, as this would compromise the very livelihood of those who work so hard to develop these tools. It's a respect thing.

[Iron Whittler]

For swaging cores, use soft lead. sow will work. Coww will be too hard. The pressure it would take to form a core and seat it in a jacket would be more than your dies and press could stand. There are several members that are willing to help if you ask. Brian at BT Sniper will usually get you pointed in the right direction. As for buying used dies and presses most members on this forum are straight shooters. Ebay, a very different animal. Be careful of what you buy. Stay with known manufactures. Good used presses and dies can be had at big savings if you do your research. Hope you find what you are looking for. If you need a little help, I would be happy to pass on what little I know. Just pm me. Iron Whittler

[tiger762]

Anneal after derim for two reasons:

1. To avoid blowing out the rim
2. To avoid the brass sticking to the punch

Those who tell you to anneal first are either:

1. High
2. Misinformed

As Mustang said, they are made of 70/30 brass. You will need to come off the wallet in order to swage bullets. There is no way around it. When you said you want to avoid spending "several hundred" Dollars, I cringed a little. As JimB points out, for $1000 you could just buy a butt-ton of projectiles and never think of swaging again. Submit your Type 03 FFL (C&R) to places like Grafs to get dealer discount pricing. I have bought Prvi-Partizan 55gr FMJBT for $340/5000 for example.

I started with CH4D kit (44cal) then after having enough of trying to make it work with a reloading press (RCBS Ammomaster) I got into RCECO. Started with a Walnut Hill press, 224 swage die set, derimming die, 25# spool of 3/16" lead wire plus a few accessories. I think it was $1300 out the door. As my mom would say "If you want to dance you have to pay the band". Since then I have picked up additional die sets: 452, 458, 510, 550, 358. Scooped up two more CH4D sets: 312 and 358 although when I use the Lee Classic Cast I feel like I am driving a car up a hill in 6th gear. There is a noticeable lack of mechanical advantage. For 224 it's probably OK but there is *no way* one will enjoy swaging 458 on a reloading press. You will blow a gasket. That is not to speak of the bronze bushings that a real swage press has to keep everything aligned.

If if were me, I would be on the lookout for a used die set then put it on credit card. See, even if money were no object you would still discover that the supply is few and far between. I wish an outfit like Lee would get into something like the 224 sort of how they came out with 50BMG dies at some point. Before that it was only CH4D and RCBS.

Good luck on whatever you choose to do.

[pertnear]

Here is what I ended up with to get .22 cases to .224 bullets:

1. RCE Seagirt Press
2. RCE .22LR to .224 bullet Die set
3. RCE - roll of lead wire
4. RCE - jar of lube
5. HF - sonic cleaner
6. Lee - small elec casting pot for annealing
7. Frankford Arsenal SS pin tumbler
8. Homemade core cutter from a set of shears

Total cost was less than $1,000

I highly recommend that you use a press designed for swaging like the Seagirt, which was $300 of my cost. I've been making bullets from 50gr up to 62gr. They all group excellent! Even the rejects shoot great. I haven't noticed any problems with the jackets coloring or hurting any bores.

FWIW....

[BlackoutBuilder]

This what I got a while ago.

[BHuij]

Even if the cost is over $1000 to get started, it's worth the investment. I figure I have at least a good 40+ years of shooting left in my life, probably more If I was 70 years old I probably would just spend that money on a big stockpile of commercial FMJs and ride it out, but I plan on shooting a lot more than 15,000 rounds of .223 over the course of my lifetime.

I'm not in a financial situation to get into this just yet, but the more I read the more it makes sense to just buy the right equipment up front. I'll save my pennies and spring for a press and set of dies in a year or two.

If I end up getting into shooting precision long range stuff like 6.5 CM, I suspect I'll be glad to have the ability to swage my own as well.

Thanks all for the info. In the meantime I'll be doing all the reading I can, starting with that excellent Corbin handbook.

[BlackoutBuilder]

Ok good luck. Nothing wrong with that. You know what, if you get set up to build your own high quality dies, then maybe set up a little business making and selling them for people to buy. It pays good, and let's face it, this is a very limited market and people making these dies won't live forever. Someone is going to be needed to carry the torch. Meanwhile, stay on here, ask and answer questions, it's a good knowledge base, and a nice little community.

[tiger762]

If you want to try your hand at making your own dies, maybe check these guys out to get a headstart on the process:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/565-p...-blanks-nopix-

$20 for a tapped / knurled die body with a pilot hole of your choice. The core swage and core seat dies are trivial. The point form requires a reamer of the desired profile of course, and those will set you back $100 or so.

Before taking that plunge, I suggest buying some O-1 tool steel scraps and practicing:

1. Drilling straight holes
2. Reaming to barely the finished diameter
3. Polishing out to the finished diameter
4. Heat treating

Once you have a process figured out, then move to a PTG die blank and start with a 0.191" diameter core swage. This is what you will use to make perfectly cylindrical cores out of 3/16" lead wire. There will be a bleed hole out he side. Mine (RCECO) uses a 0.078" (2mm or 5/64").

Next, a core seating die of 0.224" inside diameter. Should be easier than the core swage die in that there's no bleed hole. It is critical that the diameter be right and the surface mirror smooth.

I would get good at making those two dies, then splurge on a custom ground carbide reamer

[Traffer]

Depending on how handy your are, much of what you need could be home made. I think you can get a the absolutely essential stuff on eBay for less than a couple hundred dollars. Make the rest. If I ever get into it I will make my own dies etc., doing it for less than $50.
One thing you WILL NEED is a Lee Classic Cast press. They look very similar to your current press in pictures but they are much bigger, and made from STEEL. You do not need the return ram deal on top. You can tap the the end with a hammer instead. I got my Lee Classic Cast used from a private party for $100 used. There are other presses that are strong enough but I think unless you find a crazy good deal, the Lee is going to be your best bet, for inexpensive value.
I have found that the process of making my own tools is the MOST fun part of the whole game. More fun than reloading. Even more fun than Shooting. It's to the point that all I do now is play in my "shop" (actually a drill press and dremel tools, and three weeks ago a $430 Harbor Freight mini lathe). That shop is my LIVING ROOM. So imagine the fun. Sit in living room and build tools for reloading, swaging, and anything else that catches my fancy.

[Traffer]

If you want to try your hand at making your own dies, maybe check these guys out to get a headstart on the process:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/565-p...-blanks-nopix-

$20 for a tapped / knurled die body with a pilot hole of your choice. The core swage and core seat dies are trivial. The point form requires a reamer of the desired profile of course, and those will set you back $100 or so.

Before taking that plunge, I suggest buying some O-1 tool steel scraps and practicing:

1. Drilling straight holes
2. Reaming to barely the finished diameter
3. Polishing out to the finished diameter
4. Heat treating

Once you have a process figured out, then move to a PTG die blank and start with a 0.191" diameter core swage. This is what you will use to make perfectly cylindrical cores out of 3/16" lead wire. There will be a bleed hole out he side. Mine (RCECO) uses a 0.078" (2mm or 5/64").

Next, a core seating die of 0.224" inside diameter. Should be easier than the core swage die in that there's no bleed hole. It is critical that the diameter be right and the surface mirror smooth.

I would get good at making those two dies, then splurge on a custom ground carbide reamer

I make my own dies and have considered this good deal also (die blanks for $20) I have been using grade 8 bolts to make dies, and have found a source for $1 per bolt. (2 1/2" grade 8, 7/8-14) I am finding now that because of their hardness, I am having difficulty getting the precision I need. So I will either be forced to buy die blanks or ...which is now the first option...build myself a charcoal forge to anneal and heat treat the bolts. I bought a 3' length of 7/8-14 threaded rod for $20 from my local hardware store thinking it was mild steel. After trying to cut it realized it was B7 steel which seems to be as hard to machine (without annealing) as grade 8...sigh

[JimB..]

Given the level of accurate machining require to make a set of swage dies, why start with 7/8-14 all-thread or a bolt of unknown composition? I understand proof-of-concept and practice, but for a finished product and heat treating?

[Traffer]

Given the level of accurate machining require to make a set of swage dies, why start with 7/8-14 all-thread or a bolt of unknown composition? I understand proof-of-concept and practice, but for a finished product and heat treating?

Because of the price difference. I am on a budget few here could ever relate to. Even with the hard alloy, I have managed so far to make two very usable swaging dies. Dies within a half a thousandth. It is extremely time consuming but I eventually get the precision needed by using diamond coated grinding tools for the dremel and diamond grit for polishing. Since the bolts are hard to begin with, no final heat treating is necessary.