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Thread: Making a low velocity .224"

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Making a low velocity .224"

    A lot of my shooting is done on smaller places and shots out to 200m are rare and 80-100 more the norm. Noise can be a big issue with locals. I have been tinkering with my 17H and Trailboss to see what I could do to turn it down a bit and 2000f/s is about it with one of my 17gn projectiles. More than good enough but the performance of any of the factory and home swaged offerings at 100m was mediocre at best. They shed the jacket and the cores tend to pass straight through with little disruption. Seems that the frontal x- section just does not lend itself to expanding at low speed.
    I then moved to a .224" out of a 223rem as that case capacity will get a 40gn up to 2k with Trailboss. After much buggering around and finding that again performance is poor at <2K I Finally came up with a hollow pointed core in a round nose open tipped 40gn projectile. It is a bomb. Does not penetrate any more than 6" of water and just destroys itself. There seems to be a correlation between the diameter of the open tip and the depth of the hollow point (from the tip of the projectile to the base of the hollow point). Has anybody built these before? There seems to be a point where accuracy just falls off a cliff. Stability calculator said they are good and they will do a inch at 100m with a 2" drop from 50 to 100m but there is a fine line between performance and accuracy. Would be interested to hear of others trials and findings.

    Bill
    Last edited by Bills Shed; 07-26-2018 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Fixed spelling
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    This is a lot different from what you are talking, but I use the Lyman 225646 and the NOE 225-55 FN at low velocities from my 223 Rem. Plain base I get good accuracy out to 100 yards at about 1250 fps (3.5 grains of HP-38)-- which is very nearly a 22LR load. Gas checked my most accurate load is ~1700 fps (5.8 grains of HP 38 or 5 grains of Titegroup). Good accuracy for me means hitting 2' to 3" gongs at 100 yards.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    I take my hat off to anybody who has shoots plain base in 22 cal. I will stick to my jacketed gear.
    I have no dramas makeing a quiet, accurate, projectile, getting it to function to a point that I think is acceptable is another matter. Deep cavity in the lead with a round nose worked. I did try a 6 cal PF die but that did not function well at all. Recovered many perfectly formed with nice rifling engraving. I did try a 30gn with the same jacket length as the 40 but accuracy was junk, hence the question on the corilation between cavity depth and weight etc.

    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  4. #4
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    When it comes to appeasing the anti gun locals, (who will never be happy with anything we do anyhow), why not get a can? Although the temptation to bring out the 50 BMG's is soooo tempting.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy


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    Blackout,

    A can is not going to do much to reduce the noise at 2000 fps. Anything over 1130 is breaking the sound barrier. While a can will reduce the report, it is not quiet. OTOH, if you are shooting subsonic, you can then become quiet. Quiet enough to shoot critters in the back yard without alerting neighbors.

    Bill, have you tried core bonding your core to your jacket? I experimented with this a while back and got beautiful performance using rimfire jackets and bonded cores. That open tip peel back the thin jacket like a banana, even at "slower" speeds. At 2000 fps, you will get a beautiful shroom nearly all the way to the base. Take a little while longer, but I think you will love the results.
    Zbench

  6. #6
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    Thanks Z. I'm waiting on the ATF to return my infringement application for my first can right now. Filed a couple months ago. I dont have much first hand experience with them because of these irresponsible laws and oathbreakers who enforce them.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zbench View Post
    Blackout,

    A can is not going to do much to reduce the noise at 2000 fps. Anything over 1130 is breaking the sound barrier. While a can will reduce the report, it is not quiet. OTOH, if you are shooting subsonic, you can then become quiet. Quiet enough to shoot critters in the back yard without alerting neighbors.

    Bill, have you tried core bonding your core to your jacket? I experimented with this a while back and got beautiful performance using rimfire jackets and bonded cores. That open tip peel back the thin jacket like a banana, even at "slower" speeds. At 2000 fps, you will get a beautiful shroom nearly all the way to the base. Take a little while longer, but I think you will love the results.
    Hi Zbench,
    Yep I tried the bonded core, the soft point, hollow point, long jacket, shot core, copper powder core, short jacket ..... It is a real balance for performance. I can get the projectile to perform at 50 with trail boss velocities but at 100 it is not reliable. My aim is minimum drop from 50 -120m ( need a light projectile) quiet...ish,with a projectile that functions reliably at less than 2K. I think I have finally found it.

    Bill
    Last edited by Bills Shed; 07-27-2018 at 10:12 PM.
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    If it's just for target practice and you don't need portability, why not a stationary suppressor? Legal pretty much anywhere. Basically an insulated, baffled, culvert-type thing. At my local range we have some made of series of tires to shoot through. There are better ideas you can Google involving just OSB and fiberglass that seem to perform better.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    I'm looking to build a subsonic round for a blackout, just waiting to get the swaging stuff paid off. Getting closer. I'll have to pick up a chrony, and of course, build the can once the paperwork clears. I got the SBR stamp already so it's not so much "if", but "when".

    Hopefully I can get the gun to run with subs but not overgas the thing with supers.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    This projectile is for the paddock and we are not allowed suppressors here unless you a vermin type business and even then it is hard work. I can make beautiful mushroom shapes at 50m and my little 30gn SPRN will flatten out to just under 1/2" but is rubbish at 100m. The 40 is only a hair slower and has more weight. The answer turned out to be a deep hollow in the core and not the jacket. I know these are around for the high velocity varmit shooters in the USA, but they are not here. There is a lot of the V/Z Max brothers here but I find they are poor at low velocity.


    Bill
    Last edited by Bills Shed; 08-22-2018 at 08:51 PM.
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    What you are ending up with is very similar to the 22 jet type bullets. Or 22 harvey K chuck..which was made up on ruger single six revolvers converted to center fire and reamed for a shortened 22 hornet case. One of the ammo makers used to sell the 22 magnum rimfire JHP bullets as components and they worked out well for the K chuck.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...d_.223_Rem.JPG

    That is the bullet that Remington felt the 22 jet should use, those were sold as components too...I have a few. They always shot good in 22 hornet rifles even though the jet bullet was .222 diameter.

    All rambling about stuff none of us can get anymore, let alone over where your at .

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Not sure if these might be avail where your at, my dad had a stash of them when I was a kid, the cases seem to be made of copper not the stronger alloy that most 22lr cases are made of ??

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ICuLB148bJ...00/bb+caps.jpg

    We called them BB caps here...........they are from the gallery rifle days but usable in a modern 22.

    They are kind of useful in a 22 to begin with...then you could make the empties into bullet jackets .

    Looks like RWS makes them.

    RWS Ammunition 22 BB Cap (6mm Flobert) 18 Grain Round Ball
    Both ends WHAT a player

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for the info.
    I am still tinkering with this in regards to jacket length. The 40gn is great to shoot and is proving very versatile out of the 223. I finally finished my jacket trimmer for my drill press. Pneumatic operated collet and exhaust air ejection system. Makes trimming a jacket very quick and interchangeable for calibre. It means that I can have a jacket long for weight which helps with accuracy. Piping still needs to be tidied up but is cosmetic. If I can show that a longer jacket is more accurate with a 40 gn RN I will go that way. Now that I have the ability to change a jacket length easily and quickly I am more inclined to tinker more.
    Ref the caps, I remember seeing them as a kid but not in the last 30years. Even 22 shorts are something that is hard to find, let alone a cost factor. I have seem them for $25.00/50. Our pistol shooters do not even use them.
    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    CCI sells 22 Long CB caps, CCI # 0038, basically just the primer in the case - They're a little louder in handguns than in rifles but shoot well enough in either. They're not going to kill larger varmints but would do for rats / mice / rabbits

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    I kill fat ground hogs and coyote out to 75 yards with 60 grain Aguila Sniper Subsonic rimfire regularly and it cycles a well worn 10/22 or one with a spring swap. The 60 grain bullets are amazingly efficient compared to a 40 grain rimfire and very quiet. The extra 50% in bullet weight adds a lof of energy for varmints. Add a suppressor and they are whispering death. To be truly quiet requires staying subsonic, limiting velocity to the speed of sound, only way to increase energy is with increased mass.

    Have well over a dozen suppressors both latest technology commercial cans, older rubber wipe suppressors and some rather nice home brew Form 1 cans. Have several SBR type rifles but hate buying two stamps and no matter what the lower is an NFA item forever. Either purchase a nice price point sealed suppressor or roll my own on a Form 1 then pin it to the barrel ensuring have 16" from bolt face to end of suppressor and gives best of both worlds. No NFA lower, only one stamp and the $200 savings on a one stamp setup versus a two stamp gun more than pays for the parts and time to build a suppressor.

    When the 60 grain rimfire subsonics won't reach out and do the job at hand had one of my 22 Hornet turn bolts threaded for a can. Even with 36 to 40 grain full power ammo it's quiet enough neighbors don't seem to notice even if on their front porch or rear decks. Shoot a lot of 380 acp and 45 acp pistols with Osprey cans in the back yard with zero complaints from neighbors. Majority of sound is from bullets hitting traps or backstops. I shoot gas check cast lead bullets through my 223/5.56 rifles quite often both bolt guns and AR 15's. With heavy enough projectile and subsonic if use a lightweight carrier and turn gas up can get AR's to cycle fine. In today's climate of only needing one complaint to ruin your day I use suppressors on all but my concealed carry guns and wheel guns.
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. 2 Timothy 4:3

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    What hick said matches my experience.

    22 bator bullet with gas check and a little more Red Dot gets into 16-1700 fps easy with good accuracy. Mine shot some 5" lower than factory ammo at 100 yards.

    Same bullet minus gas check and around 4 grains of Red Dot I would estimate to be between 1300 and 1400 fps. About like .22lr. At 50 yards they would all have killed a squirrel with a head shot. Figuring eye for aim point they'd of all been inside the head. I really have not used it since then. But I can replicate at need.

    Not long after I worked those 2 loads up .22lr ammo started reappearing at semi decent prices.

    Mine were lubed with 3 light coats of BLL if that helps.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    All this talk of suppressors makes me a little wishful but it think it will be awhile before they will make it back into the Australian shooting scene. Maybe one day. Fact based firearm laws seem to be hard to find and emotion runs high with a very noisy minority with little idea running the show.
    My aim is not to be subsonic, just to tone it down a little. We have lots of natural bush and rolling hills at my end of the world. A 223 Rem report really rattles around the hills. This projectile was to be used in a 223rem (as it is the most popular cal CF in Australia), and for it to work at less than 2k. I did a lot of testing and most worked well at around 2500 or more but when you drop that to 1900ish performance is very poor at 100m.

    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  18. #18
    Boolit Man
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    Why not buy a 22 Hornet? I shoot my Hornets with full power 36 grain projectiles that all are sub MOA without hearing protection. I can kill crow, squirrel, ground hogs and coyote to 150 yards without ranging to dope my shots.

    I talk to a ham operator in Tasmania on occassion. We seem to have a good skip from there to here and back. Work him with a 100 watt mobile rig from my truck quite easily and he is a great guy who loves to chat. Hear him all the time but usually already has a fish on his hook.
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. 2 Timothy 4:3

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hueyville View Post
    Why not buy a 22 Hornet? I shoot my Hornets with full power 36 grain projectiles that all are sub MOA without hearing protection. I can kill crow, squirrel, ground hogs and coyote to 150 yards without ranging to dope my shots.

    I talk to a ham operator in Tasmania on occassion. We seem to have a good skip from there to here and back. Work him with a 100 watt mobile rig from my truck quite easily and he is a great guy who loves to chat. Hear him all the time but usually already has a fish on his hook.
    Firstly I have a Hornet. It shoots well. I am not trying to make another hornet. I wanted to build a projectile that Works well at 100m. I do not need to shoot 150m. Trailboss out of a hornet is very low velocity and I want about 2k. I want it quiet without a suppressor as it is illegal to own them here. 8gn of Trailboss in a .223rem is far quieter than a 22hornet.
    If you shoot a 22hornet without hearing protection and think it is quiet, we have different standards of quiet.

    Bill
    The bloke out in the field is always right until proven otherwise.

  20. #20
    Boolit Man
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    Quiet to me is any round that can shoot without hearing protection and not make my ears ring. My Hornets and K Hornets are less obtrusive than a full power 5.56/223 with a suppressor. Have you tried a flash can? Are they legal in Oz? (BTW my adopted son lives in Oz, went down to work for Cummins mine division, then signed on with Rolls Royse and quickly landed in heavy movers with MTM owned by Penske unsure if he is moving home as has dual passports now and loves all but the no fun guns part)

    Have some 13.7" and 14.5" barrels with the Noveske Flaming Pig device which does not reduce dB level but focuses it and directs downrange away from shooter and to either side. Compared to standard muzzle or flash hider when use a flash can people either side of me at range will usually comment on how quiet my flash can rifles are. Odds are no people in direction you are shooting thus projecting the sound that direction may help. The Chinese knock offs don't work near as well as a name brand flash can.
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. 2 Timothy 4:3

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check