Judgmentalism

[Blackwater]

In my early life, we had a small country church that couldn't afford a really well schooled preacher. So, we usually whoever was available that we could afford, and who seemed to be the best we had to choose from. Some of those were not very well schooled in scripture interpretation nor in Baptist theology. Even as a very young teen, I recognized incongruencies in some of their proposed ideas. When even a young teen remembers other verses that diametrically oppose what came from the pulpit, one can only shrug these things off in good "Christian charity," and continue the search for real Truth as best as one could. One thing that constantly perturbed me was the way that some were so "down" on CAtholics. You see, I knew some Catholics, and they were some of the finest folks I've ever known. So it came to pass, that I've come to think that it really doesn't matter what sect one belongs to, so much as it does whether or not one is truly seeking the real Truth found in the Good Book. And knowing I was a seeker, vs. a "finder," I cheerfully granted those of other sects the benefit of a doubt, and mainly began doing my assessments on the basis of whether their actions and espoused beliefs matched up, or whether there was a disparity between them. Even among those who showed a disparity, I knew it was NOT up to me to judge them, but that duty fell to the Lord, and to Him exclusively. I just tried to learn what I could from wherever I could find something of value to "chew on." That has served me very well, I think. All I wanted was the Truth, and the Truth alone, and I didn't really care where or from whom I found it. Thus began my own personal journey in trying to understand God and all that He has created. I still don't understand it all, and it's taken me many years to accrue such understanding as I've been able to glean from it all, but ... I'm pretty well satisfied that it's enough for me to be in unending awe at just what God is, who He is, and how much He truly loves us, and takes care of us when we're not even willing to take care of ourselves. As I've read and thought about the scriptures, I've been markedly surprised and humbled by how one verse can have multiple meanings, depending on the situation it's considered it applies to. I've come to accept that I'll never understand or even perceive it ALL, but I've become increasingly thankful for what God has shown to me, when I've been willing and able to comprehend what He was so diligently trying to teach us. Sure keeps a fella' humble!

These are some of the reasons I've come to where I cringe whenever I hear judgmentalism among professing Christians. It's SO dysfunctional! And, it's directly contrary to what the Lord so lovingly and consistently tried to teach us, too. But, it seems that it's part and parcel to our basic natures - our inborn instinct and tendencies - to put others down so that we can subsequently claim perhaps more righteousness than we righteously merit.

It's taken me a long time to come to where I have little tendency to judge others, and I'm far from perfect even at that! But I'm a LOT better than I used to be in this. If God figures it's HIS job to do the judging, and has TOLD us so ..... well, being a humble country boy, I figure that letting Him do it is part and parcel of my Faith in Him, and I try diligently NOT to do any judging. Don't get me wrong here! I could defend myself and take another human life if it were or appeared to be necessary. But as to the state of that individual's soul, I leave THAT to God.

One of the many things that I've come to respect about the Catholic church, or at least among the Catholics that have taken the trouble and time to know real Church stances on such matters, that is very much their stance on judging others. Fr. Spitzer on "Father Spitzer's Universe" is a VERY knowledgeable theologian, and has written a number of books on theology, in addition to running their Magis Center in CA. His program on EWTN is very much worth watching for ANY Christian. Like G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, 98%+ of his writing and words apply to all of Christianity, and not just to fellow Catholics. I wish all sects of Christianity were more like that, but unfortunately, I think it's the "almighty dollar" that fuels much of the inter-disciplinary feuds and contests that have always existed between the various sects of Christianity.

I have a sort of "pet theory" that Protestantism was ordained by God Himself, so that only one man with a Bible could hold services anywhere and at any given moment, as the then "New World" was established, explored, expanded and tamed. How could it be any other way, really? He did NOT, I am convinced, create the different sects just for them to disparage the others! So again, judging other sects and souls seems clearly contrary to what the Lord so diligently and lovingly tried to teach us to do.

Sure, folks are taught in one or the other of the sects, and each one has its special emphasis. But I also don't believe that the Lord ever intended for any of us to be prideful (the sin of Satan, remember!) and abase any other Christian or sect of Christianity. If you as me, each one offers something "special" and CAN, if we simply let it, heighten our understanding and appreciation of the Lord and all that he tried to teach us.

Yes, each of us should believe in our church and fellow church members, but NOT decry or debase other sects of Christianity or other persons of other sects. Let them worship in the manner they will, and let GOD do the judging. It's our duty to at least try to get along, NOT to divide ourselves into the many sects that now compose the Christian Faith.

We're all familiar with the old truism, "Divide and conquer," haven't we? Well, when we're facing a huge undertaking, it's the height of wisdom to divide it up into smaller, more numerous goals, and work at them one by one until the end result is reached. However, it's also one of Satan's tools, I am convinced, to separate and thus weaken Christianity by spreading out its effect and spurring inter-faith squabbles that should NEVER have existed nor been allowed to fester, as they so often do.

Christ forgave us of all we've ever done or ever COULD do, at the cost of his own blood and untold pain. Can we not simply forgive those who believe a bit differently than we do, and leave it to God to judge them? This truly seems like so very little to ask of each other, and yet, it COULD be so very strengthening of our collective Christian Faith, if we'd but carry out this simple principle that Christ has so lovinglly and consistently TRIED to teach us to. We'd have more clout in the world, politically and probably socially as well. After all, when unbelievers see us arguing tooth and nail among ourselves, it SURELY doesn't help bring them to the Light, does it? How could it???

In the end, judgmentalism is really, at its essential core, just a way of our expressing our own pridefulness, and pretending to know more than any of us really CAN know, definitively. It just seems to be somewhere in our DNA to be judgmental, but it CAN be overcome if we simply THINK before we condemn or disparage. That's the part that's up to each of us, individually, and as an ongoing proposition. Just another temptation provided by the "Father of All Lies." And we cannot defend THAT!

That's my thoughts, anyway. Care to comment with yours? I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

[jmort]

Once I figured out that the Bible commands that I am to judge no one, life was simpler. Only judgement here on earth comes from church leaders/elders/pastors on the church members and in relation to their church membership. Paul spells that process out clearly. I am in charge of me and judge no one. For sinner men and women, that is God's province.

[buckwheatpaul]

I spent a lifetime in L.E. and had to judge; but was taught to judge on the circumstance and not the person......being a parent you have to judge to raise your own children....you know when they lie to you and you punish them for their transgression and not the person again. With all the hate surrounding us I do judge to survive but it sure is difficult to not judge the act and to instead judge the individual...I am a work in progress.

[jmort]

I assumed we are talking about ultimate judgement and not temporal judgement. They are as far apart as is Heaven from earth,

[Blackwater]

Yep. We're not to judge others' destination toward Heaven or Hell we NEVER really know what all's at work within another person, or what is motivating them. We CAN, however, assess them and their intentions, in order to protect ourselves, which is what Paul is speaking of in his LE experience. That's a whole 'nother thing, and is NOT really "judgment" but more of an assessment, in order to survive on the streets, where many try to appear to be something they really aren't, to attain an advantage, or aid in an assault. Our English language often uses words that aren't precisely clear in their meaning, and this causes many problems. I've seen it cause terrible rows, and neither side realized they weren't even arguing about the same thing! The way to wisdom and understanding is fraught with many barriers. An inquisitive mind can avoid a good deal of trouble by simply inquiring, and learning exactly what it is that another opiner MEANS by what they're saying, and the words they're using. And too, we tend to use our language pretty slopily at times. I've done this, and so have everyone else I know and am familiar with. But .... we keep trying to communicate our meaning, however inadequately we may sometimes be at it. Again, wisdom and judgment don't come easily nor fast!

[DCP]

I don't feel being a cop or a parent and enforcing the rules is Judging people.
The judging there talking about is deeper than that.
I am finding it hard trying to find the words I want here.

Enforcing laws or rules is not judging,

We are all sinners only God knows whats in our hearts. That is his job

You and your sins are between you and God only.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It is true that only God can judge the character and ultimate disposition of a person's soul.

But, it is also true that the Holy Bible plainly states that we are to be subject to the civil authority and that laws, rulers, and law enforcers exist for our good and are to be obeyed. Even in ancient Israel there were Judges appointed to settle disputes and see that penalties were carried out.

What kind of a world would we be living in if criminal and civil judgment did not exist? For us, presently physical beings, it is difficult to separate human criminal and civil wrongs and subsequent human judgment from that which will eventually be imposed by God. But I'm sure of one thing, that God does not desire, require, or expect us to become victims. One of the most repulsive things I've encountered during my years has been the attitude some sects hold that non-violence is expected -- "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay." And he will, but in his own good time and place, and this is known only to him and is not specified. In my view it's like getting paddled in school, and later a second time when you got home. First the human law will judge and punish one, but the malefactor is not off the hook with God. So, some one kills one of these people's loved ones and they chose to do nothing, but obviously serial killers must be stopped. "If your neighbor comes to kill thee, rise up and smite him first." Without that philosophy the modern day nation of Israel would not exist. If you are a person of such gentle nature that you can forgive someone harming yourself or your loved ones this may or may not sit well with God and may or may not enhance the value and quality of your soul when he judges, but such persons can not be allowed to repeat their harmful acts, and some of their acts are so bad that the first time is enough, and calls for their permanent removal from society.

As for our temporal existence, I say that it is impossible to "not judge", and that one's survival may be dependent on one judging. Difficult for some to understand who confuse man's judgment with the judgment of God, but understood by myself, buckwheatpaul, DCP, and others who have experienced Law Enforcement as being inseparable in this mortal existence. Do not say, "No, no -- you don't understand, that's not what we're discussing and that's not the point I'm trying to make!" Because, perhaps, you do not have a clear understanding yourself of the relationship of "judgment" of man, judgment of God, and the relationship between the two, and that one may be a precursor to the other.

As for judging what is and is not acceptable to God in worship and behavior, it's all written down and it is his sole decision. But we shouldn't confuse "judgment" with "discernment". If someone, or a group, professes belief in a doctrine that we view as being false and harmful we are told in the scriptures to see it for what it is and to avoid it, run from it, and even to use the scriptures for "reproof and correction." If you discern that someone or something is a wolf in sheep's clothing you should not allow it into your fold to cause harm. Not only scripturally based (this last sentence), but based on common sense as well.

It took years for me to realize the difference between discernment and judgment. I posed the question about what "not judging" was all about to many ministers and lay members and rarely got anything back that I could use that made sense. It is a hard concept to grasp, but is really so simple, that we are to see error and evil for what it is and if possible not allow it to harm us; but that God will be the final judge of one's deeds in a much higher court than is man's, and with a much more righteous, fair, and lasting judgment.

You asked for thoughts-- there they are.

DG

[Traffer]

Everyone judges people and situations all of the time. No problem there. But to have a US and Them attitude is very unhealthy. Grouping people by their religeous backgrounds is dangerous. Not completely wrong, just dangerous. I tend to judge Muslims like that. Because their holy book actually does pit them against the rest of humanity. However, even in that situation the individuals deserve to be seen for their own actions. "You will know a tree by it's fruit" is a good example of the need for sound judgement of both individuals, congregations of people and even religions as a whole.
It may be hatred that gets confused with judgment. When someone talks bad about a different "denomination" it is usually propelled by a thing called despising. A good dictionary gives the meaning of despise as from two Latin word "specere" meaning to look. Add the "de-" to it, means downward and it means "to look downward" or "to look down upon". In our present day despise has come to mean a deep hatred. So if you consider that all together I believe you have the "essence" of the idea of "always talking bad about Catholics etc.," It's too bad people are like this, but we are.
The other observation I would mention is that we humans live in a world that is being attacked and influenced by Evil forces. The forces of Evil in the heavenly realms are constantly trying to tear down both individuals and truth. Especially the truth of salvation through the sacrifice of Christ. There is a war going on for every soul. The Bible says "our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the dark forces in the heavenly realms." When we consider that we can look at our fellow man as "being in the same boat" with us. Then we can deal with compassion so we can help him no matter where he is at in his heart.
With this said, I am a very strong judger. I judge my fellow Christians. The other day I criticized my pastor in public. He was angry for a moment but after reflection...it helped him. He realized his error and was better off for it. I have rebuked strangers in public when their actions deserved it. It has caused some problems but it is the right thing to do. Now I am not talking about criticizing for something "perceived" and becoming emotional. I am talking about when someone does something that I know I can convince them of their wrong doing. I will continue to do so. In my opinion it is just part of being a Christian.

[Char-Gar]

Way to many people confuse evaluating, assessing and decision making with judgment. Not the same thing at all.

[DCP]

Who among us has not said? How can they do that they say they are a Christain!

Example:
The married Pastor has just been caught with a prostitute!
An Adult child that goes to church every Sunday has not seen the parents in 10 yrs over a petty disagreement.

The Pastor may lose his church.

They are a sinner to be judged by God.

[Blackwater]

Some good comments here. What I was mainly referring to when I printed "judging" was the way that way too many professing Christians talk bad about other believers who "backslide" or others who they probably don't even know what their beliefs are, who don't act the way they think "Christians" are SUPPOSED to act - which can be a very narrow range of behavior. Some of the more dour types don't like seeing folks having real fun. Christ WANTS us to be happy, and his first miracle, the turning of the water into wine, was to allow the "party" at the wedding to continue!

Some folks think that being a "good Christian" means putting others down so they can think well of themselves. I think there's an example in the Bible of someone doing that. Remember the rich man who prayed loudly in the Temple, and dropped his coins very noisily in the poor box? And then, in comes an old, poor woman - very quietly - and prays quietly, and drops her two mites into the poor box. Christ was NOT very complimentary of the rich man, but pointed out that the old widow had given ALL SHE HAD TO GIVE, and was humble and was not seeking the adulations of the masses.

If there's any quality that identifies a person as a Christian, without any discussion of his or her beliefs, it's got to be simple, honest humility, along with a concern for others about them, young or old, rich or poor, and of whatever race they happen to be. THIS would prevent judgmentalism pretty effectively as well, and this is part of the reason that I've come to consider humility as THE #1 most reliable identifier of true and mature Christians.

Judging others also stops dead still all efforts to reason with and convert non-believers, too. Christ gave us a commission to go out and convert as many as would listen to us, and think seriously about what we have to offer. Putting others down does NOT do much of a job in accomplishing this goal we're all supposed to hold dear in our hearts. And I think, probably subjects us to God's judgment as well! It may be "human nature" to err, and to put others down in order to think of ourselves as being elevated, but judgmentalism is a VERY dangerous thing, because it gets between us and our assigned duties to our fellow man. This cannot produce anything but strife, rancor and confusion, not to mention outright ill will of each against the other. Because of this, great dissentions are created and sustained, and the "cancer" of judgmentalism just grows and grows and festers!

Judgmentalism has NO place, IMO, in a Christian's heart. But it takes a lot of effort to not fall prey to the temptations it offers! And the best way to guard against that is to simply self-assess ourselves now and then, and recognize any behaviors that get between us and our duties that Christ assigned to us. We simply have to live the life like Christ TRIED to teach us to live it. And even the best Christians DO err now and then, and fall prey to various temptations, and judgmentalism is one of those that can be missed very easily when we think it's "justified." Apart from the emotional factors that often are at work, though, we CAN recognize it, and learn to not judge others, even while we can still assess any implications others may present us with. We can't be stupid, of course, but we don't HAVE to be judgmental. It's just a matter of self-control and keeping a broader and deeper view of our duties and obligations toward our fellow human beings. Is there anyone here who has never felt in need of understanding and forgiveness? I've never known such a person, and if we WANT to be understood and forgiven, we have to DO those things toward others. Otherwise, we have no right to apologize or be forgiven by Christ or our fellow man.

Judgmentalism really, really, really directs our minds in a direction that Christ would NOT be very happy with! On any count, or in any situation. I have judged, and done it inappropriately, not to mention being just plan wrong. All I can do is try to be as honest and humble about my mistakes as possible, and resolve to try not to make the same mistakes as an ongoing thing. And folks, that ain't easy. Sometimes it's downright difficult, in fact! But it CAN be done, and Christ directed us to be forgiving and understanding, as He is toward US! I believe if a person truly believes in Christ, he can be wrong about just about everything else, and he'll still go to Heaven. But those who purport to believe, but who constantly do THEIR will rather than what Christ has directed us to do, and never admits a fault or error (pretends to be "perfect"), is in great danger of THE Judgment.

I just don't believe we have enough information or wisdom to TRULY know how to assess others' stance with the Lord. He seems to be LOT more forgiving than we often seem to be. Puting down non-believers and walking away from them "shaking the dust" as we go, is NOT much of a way to spread our Faith! If a non-believer makes a surly comment about our Faith, I've found that a laugh or chuckle throws them totally off base. It's certainly not what they expect. If we want to create converts, we have to DEMONSTRATE to them some REASON why they should consider our Faith seriously, and just "beating them over the head" with scriptures, no matter how true they may be, is most certainly no way to win converts. And walking away is an act of cowardice, and often tends to show a fear of inadequacy in the walker's own mind.

Christ tried very, very hard, and paid a terrible price, for TRYING to show us "the way." It takes mastering our own emotions and serious and lengthy study to really understand a lot about what He so diligently tried to teach us, and even longer to put it to pretty consistent use. But it CAN be done! I've seen it. And it's a VERY worthy goal to aspire to and try to develop within ourselves. But we have to be honest with ourselves, and "clean up around our own doorsteps" and concern ourselves less with what others might be doing. If we all did that, many would be coming to US, instead of avoiding us like a plague!!! And just imagine what that would do to our world! It would change our world for the better almost overnight!

Yes, we largely make our own problems, and many of those are due to a simple aversion to complete honest about and within our own selves. I know I'm a lot happier, more care-free, and at peace, since I've begun cleaning up my own "house" instead of trying to tell others what to do! And I like that. A LOT!

[Char-Gar]

Blackwater....What you call "judgmentalism" I call criticism. Folks inside and outside the church are indeed critical of others. This produces nothing good and many things bad.

[Hickory]

Way to many people confuse evaluating, assessing and decision making with judgment. Not the same thing at all.

This is a very good assessment of this subject Char-Gar!

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar, that's one of the problems with language. We use different words to mean the same thing, and often, the words we use are misinterpreted because to someone else, the word means something different than it does to the original speaker. Fights have broken out needlessly because of this and people have even died as a result of miscommunication.

Any discussion can break down into a "fight" or argument simply due to others not understanding specifically what another is trying to communicate. But I think we'd all agree that judging others is NOT functional for us, or anyone we may subject to judgmentalism. And yet, it's a very difficult thing to NOT do! It seems to be in our nature to slip over into judgmentalism when all we really meant to do is give an opinion. It still makes me cringe, though .... unless of course it's ME who slips over into it. It ain't easy being human, and maybe particularly so for Christians. We see through the glass darkly sometimes, and often, when we most need and ought to see much more clearly. A moment's laxity, and we can do something we may regret. And who among us is so diligent that they never err??? It certainly isn't me! But .... we keep trying to do better.

I think most of us constantly try to do better in many ways toward many things. It's as though we are constantly standing on banana peels. It's so very easy to fall into judgmentalism, especially when we feel "justified" in doing so, but Christ never gave us directions about judgment, and did not qualify what He told us to do with regard to it. He just said "don't do it" in about a dozen or more different ways and passages. But then, many of us have a lot of trouble following His directions in this and many other ways as well. It's not easy being a Christian. We have to constantly be on guard to prevent ourselves from falling into things that Christ told us were NOT good for us. It may not be easy, but the reward is great for those who follow His directions. He loves us and wants us to be happy, and wants things to go well for us. If we followed His directions more scrupulously, we'd be a lot happier, and this world would be transformed overnight into a MUCH nicer place, where feuds and dissension would be very greatly reduced. Scrupulous and constant self-assessment seems to be the only way we can approach this. If our emotions are piqued, it's easy to strike out in a way that we know full well isn't quite "Christian." But .... we CAN constantly try, and constantly reassess ourselves. Again, this is why I tend to think that simply being truly humble is one of the best and most reliable ways to identify a mature Christian. Only the truly humble can truly assess themselves reliably.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, Blackwater, I completely agree with your essays of your past two posts. Your initial post wasn't stated quite as "on point", and left room for wiggling and discussion, which some of us took. I hope you realize that there was no desire by any of us to argue, but rather to clarify. It is apparent now that you wished to discuss being judgmental toward other actual and claimed-to-be Christians. Finger pointing, backbiting, and gossip are deadly, and God will make the judgment. But, if one steps outside this box, then I believe it become apparent that judgments must be made in other matters.

[Blackwater]

Yeah, I can do that sometimes. I call it "mental constipation." It's just hard to get it all out so others always (?) understand. C'est la' vie, I guess?

[Char-Gar]

In this world, Satan is most active in Christian churches, turning Christians against one another, against the pastor and in general creating disharmony and discord. If churches can be neutered in such a way, they then present no challenge to Satan and his work. Satan is plenty smart and known to attack his opposition at the source.

[RU shooter]

I don't often post in this section but I've enjoyed reading this topic . As it's the reason I haven't been to a "formal" church service in close to 20 yrs. yes I'm a Christian was raised southern baptist . I've attended quite a few different churches along with services of a few other religions . I have to say I was made to feel more welcomed and less like a stranger or outsider in the non Christian establishments than the majority of the Christian faith . In one local church I was actually told I wasn't welcome again next Sunday unless my girl and I were" properly dressed " to be in the house of the Lord she was wearing slacks and a button down shirt myself wearing black jeans and a 3 button shirt . In that church I found out later women didn't ever wear pants even at home.. a lot of the other churches drew long stares at the outsiders and way to personal question from the people after the service for a first time meeting . Seems we were only welcome if we conformed to their way of worshipping . I believe a lot of the different "christian " chirches are like this if you don't walk in lock step they would rather not have you there . Is that fact true? Probably not the majority but that's what I have seen and how I've felt after a short time . One of the most welcoming and non judgemental churches I was ever at was one I felt I'd be completely out of place in and feel the most judged was a very very small baptist in a little nowhere town , little did I know it was anall black congregation . But I was made to feel welcomed never stared at talked to like I was a friend and they had known me for years. I felt more at home and happy there than in just about any church I've ever been in . Again why is that ? In my mind it's because those black people have been judged by other people their entire lives . Maybe there's something toothat . Maybe it's just the same ole if your not like us your treated differently conform or be cast out mentality . And seems this is mostly from "christians" we all believe in the same God, Christ and Holy Spirit .

[Blackwater]

Yep. We so often find the strangest and most curious ways to separate ourselves out, one from another. What a terrible waste! And what a concession to Satan himself!!! Personally, if I ever got to the place where I don't think there's something most any person can teach me, or make me re-learn from a different perspective, I think I'll just shoot myself. Because at that point, it'd all be over for me anyway, and I'd be totally lost to what Christ tried so hard and diligently to teach us!

I have no problem at all knowing some sects see things a little differently than I do. I'm just not that big a prig! And I've found that listening to others yields understanding, even if it's not complete understanding. And that's a WHOLE lot better than stupidly arguing "points" that are mostly self-contrived rather than hard, Biblical principles. We BELIEVE! We don't really KNOW, and can't, until we shed these temporal bodies and become a much different entity. I keep trying to understand more and better, but I'll never expect to know enough to condemn another believer's views. And cleaning up around my OWN doorsteps keeps me plenty busy, so that I've no TIME for cleaning up others'!!!

Yes, I've talked to folks that had what seemed to me to be a rather stilted and erroneous view. But I can't KNOW that, so .... it just seems best to let them learn and grow, just as God let ME do, and grant them the grace of more time to learn and grow. In fact, it's these folks that I sometimes like to strike up a discussion with most. Sometimes I can make a point, without being aggressive or condemning. It's amazing how much we can learn from a simple, honest discussion.

[justashooter]

Isaiah 61 was cited in Luke 4 when religious men asked Christ who he was. He was ejected for stating his inheritance, and thereby his nature.

could/should we do any otherwise, or expect any different result?