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Thread: What are these cardboard cartridges for?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master RogerDat's Avatar
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    What are these cardboard cartridges for?

    Wondered what these cardboard tube cartridges were for. You can't see it well but there is a disk pressed into the open end to seal in what I assume is a BP charge.

    Seemed odd to me in that it was arranged differently than I thought paper cartridges were. This has bullet point out rather than point in so base could be fed into bore after pouring charge in. How were they used.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    They were for sale. Assuming they fit my 58 Zouve and someone knows how I would use them what would be a fair price?
    Je suis Charlie
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this way of getting casting material somehow.
    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat I do trade a bit from time to time.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    rancher1913's Avatar
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    doesn't look like it would work to shove the whole thing down a bore, bullet would not be able to grab the rifling. maybe you pull the bullet out, dump the premeasured charge from the paper down the bore then seat the bullet.
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Some early sharps and other cartridge arms ( paper cutters) used a paper cartridge and a musket cap to fire them. These were done in several ways a nitrated paper that burned ompletly or a tube that was removed after firing. On the heavy tubes the paper base was pierced with a sharp tool to allow the muskets fire thru

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Rick Hodges's Avatar
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    Civil War reenactors use them for stake shoots. Pull bullet with teeth, pour powder, place and ram minie home, prime and fire. I buddy of mine used to do that with a 1861 Springfield replica. Call it a speed loader of sorts.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Might be a Gallager.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master 59sharps's Avatar
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    It's a reusable musket tube if the disc is ,also cardboard. Bullet is normaly loaded upside down. Bullet is pulled when loading powered is poured out down the bareel. Tube is reuseable. These are still used by N-SSA members thow most have gone to the plastic caplets. If the base is paper then it is for a 59 or 63 sharps and is a charlie Hann tube. It's loaded into the sharps when fired it exits the barrel it breaks apart. I use them in my sharps. TEyed to down load the sharps tube but I get a failed message.
    14th VA. CAV.
    N_SSA

  7. #7
    Boolit Master 59sharps's Avatar
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    What is the seller telling you? Well lead is 1 2 $ a lb powered is say$20 alb. Check w chaElie Hahn for tub cost. That's about all I can tell you. Other than what's it worth to you. Not to have to make them up. The bullet dose not really look like a,musket bullet. Is it hollow bade if not it is not for musket.
    14th VA. CAV.
    N_SSA

  8. #8
    Boolit Master 59sharps's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the sharps round I use
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    Musket round I use
    Last edited by 59sharps; 07-22-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    14th VA. CAV.
    N_SSA

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hodges View Post
    Civil War reenactors use them for stake shoots. Pull bullet with teeth, pour powder, place and ram minie home, prime and fire. I buddy of mine used to do that with a 1861 Springfield replica. Call it a speed loader of sorts.
    Was reading up on this stuff a few nights ago - the proper Enfield paper cartridge was a three piece affair with a 550 calibre minie that ended up working as a paper patch slug - the paper dipped in beeswax http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index...owall=&start=2 still not finished figuring this out but its interesting .

  10. #10
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    The Enfield was a three piece affair but it did not leave the boolit exposed.
    If God didn't want man to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of MEAT!

    The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by stubshaft View Post
    The Enfield was a three piece affair but it did not leave the boolit exposed.
    correct ! nose inwards
    The interesting part to me was the undersized boolit (550 in a 577 bore) and that they were shooting it as a paper patched rather than the normal minie we are used to seeing --- that would allow a slick rather than grooved ----- dont know whether that was the case or not but there were pictures of extruding machines and they were fed with 1 cwt spools of lead wire ----- the instructions for the paper included three little cuts in the outer to make sure it tore off at the correct point. Have seen numerous attempts at paper cartridges for these - none of which impressed me - this n looked interesting.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master RogerDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59sharps View Post
    It's a reusable musket tube if the disc is ,also cardboard. Bullet is normaly loaded upside down. Bullet is pulled when loading powered is poured out down the bareel. Tube is reuseable. These are still used by N-SSA members thow most have gone to the plastic caplets. If the base is paper then it is for a 59 or 63 sharps and is a charlie Hann tube. It's loaded into the sharps when fired it exits the barrel it breaks apart. I use them in my sharps. TEyed to down load the sharps tube but I get a failed message.
    Cardboard "cap" inserted into the disk with the edge folds toward the outside is what seals the disk. Another member here gave me a few for loading .58 minnie ball loads. I just never figured out how to load them. As mentioned base out was how rolled paper cartridges are made so I was confused on how to use the cardboard tube where the bullet nose inside would have really limited the powder capacity. He saw this and said you just pull the bullet out with your hand, he doesn't recommend using teeth on the lead bullet.

    Not really worth much to me, part of a shotgun box worth of tubes with rather old lube and powder may have become soaked with lube. I have a couple hundred of those .58 bullets cast and a couple pounds of black and a couple of pyrodex. I thought they could be for one of the early rifles such as the sharps mentioned so figured I would find out what they were.

    Lot of neat articles on rolling paper cartridges. One of those things I would like to give a try someday. Along with the cardboard tubes I have. While a the idea of "rapid fire" in a muzzle loading rifle is an oxymoron I could see a point to having a ready supply of 2nd shots that would come into play sooner, or just an easy way to load so one gets the most "bang" out of range time.
    Je suis Charlie
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this way of getting casting material somehow.
    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat I do trade a bit from time to time.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master 59sharps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
    Cardboard "cap" inserted into the disk with the edge folds toward the outside is what seals the disk. Another member here gave me a few for loading .58 minnie ball loads. I just never figured out how to load them. As mentioned base out was how rolled paper cartridges are made so I was confused on how to use the cardboard tube where the bullet nose inside would have really limited the powder capacity. He saw this and said you just pull the bullet out with your hand, he doesn't recommend using teeth on the lead bullet.

    Not really worth much to me, part of a shotgun box worth of tubes with rather old lube and powder may have become soaked with lube. I have a couple hundred of those .58 bullets cast and a couple pounds of black and a couple of pyrodex. I thought they could be for one of the early rifles such as the sharps mentioned so figured I would find out what they were.

    Lot of neat articles on rolling paper cartridges. One of those things I would like to give a try someday. Along with the cardboard tubes I have. While a the idea of "rapid fire" in a muzzle loading rifle is an oxymoron I could see a point to having a ready supply of 2nd shots that would come into play sooner, or just an easy way to load so one gets the most "bang" out of range time.
    go to the n_ssa board there are guys up in your area that could help you w this. what you have sounds like the tubes my friend uses he shoots about 48 of 3f. w/ the bullet upside down in the tube. remember we shoot target loads not mil charges. so do not need a lot of extra room in the tube.
    14th VA. CAV.
    N_SSA

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Back in the 1960's, cardboard tubes were commonly used to preload charges for the rifled musket. Dixie used to sell them in a variety of sizes. The ones Iused (and got from them) had a red cardboard plug for the open end. You loaded you powder charge in them, lubed your minie ball up and usually inserted it upside down in the open end - although some of the guys would insert it in base first. When shooting N-SSA relays, you pulled the tube out of your cartridge box, removed the minie ball (sometimes in your teeth), dumped the powder charge down the barrel nd then rammed the minie home. Capped and fired. The tube was just dropped at your feet and after the relay, you picked them up to re-use. Today,there are plastic tubes available to use the same way that are much more durable that will last for hundreds of loadings. The card board tubes were good, but they wouldn't last as long as the new plastic styles do. I still have a number of the card board tubes kicking around somewhere.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hodges View Post
    Civil War reenactors use them for stake shoots. Pull bullet with teeth, pour powder, place and ram minie home, prime and fire. I buddy of mine used to do that with a 1861 Springfield replica. Call it a speed loader of sorts.
    That is what I was thinking when I seen the photo. But used also for the round to shoot also with the bullet.
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    post number 4 has it right. we used them for n-ssa. they are speed loaders. only we loaded them with the bullet nose first. then give then exposed hollow base a little Crisco before the match. I have a box of the empty tubes here some place. a lot of shooters now use rubber tubes. they last longer and being bright red are easier to find after the match.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master RogerDat's Avatar
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    I let them go on their way. Battery went on my digital caliper so couldn't nail down what size bullet was in them. And the old powder & lube to deal with. I did see the plastic ones when checking online trying to figure out these cardboard ones.

    I knew a re-enactor that would roll newsprint charges. Just dump tube and thump stock to settle before firing. He said ram rods were a no-no. Seems like sooner or later someone would always leave rod in and fire it like an arrow. Even with the bullets separate I could see a pre-measured paper tube of powder would be useful. This was a nice set of directions to creating those. http://www.4thuscok.org/notes/cartridge.html#carts But these are not "right" in terms of having the Minnie ball in them. Just a charge but nice looking none the less.
    Je suis Charlie
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this way of getting casting material somehow.
    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat I do trade a bit from time to time.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I ended up with about a dozen of the red "speed loaders" in a box of BP stuff that came with a .58 caliber Buffalo Hunter. Some were still loaded with 40 grains of powder and a 530 grain minnie ball. Thought they were a home made idea using Cap-Plugs not something regularly used for shooting. Looks like I learned something from the thread.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check