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Thread: Unintentional Case Forming Experience

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy rr2241tx's Avatar
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    Unintentional Case Forming Experience

    Model 1924 Mannlicher-Schoenauer Carbines were made in 7x57 Mauser for the US market and 7X64 Brenneke for the European market where it was illegal to own rifles in military calibers. This is shamelessly plagerized straight off the Mannlicher Collectors website/Characteristics:

    1924/1925 .30-06, 7x57, 7x64, 8x57JS, 8x60S, 9.3x62mm, 10.75x68mm Straight Butterknife Wing Safety carbine, rifle, and takedown steel plate with trap

    1950 6.5x54mm, .257Roberts, 270 WCF, .30-06 US Straight Butterknife Wing & Side Carbine & Rifle Plastic

    I have been saving my lunch money for a little over a year in order to purchase a nice M-S since two of my best rifle crank buddies were showing off their picks from a huge collection being quietly liquidated by a local gun store. Having finally saved up the required number of portraits of dead Presidents, I too headed off to the local gun store. My initial plan was to purchase either a 1903 model in 6.5X54 or a 1924/25 in 7x57 with a slight preference for the later since I have reloading materials for the Mauser cartridge and would not have to start over with a new caliber. As luck would have it there were several 1903s for sale, none of which was even remotely in my price range and nothing available in 7x57 and all I got out of the trip was a good Mexican buffet lunch. As I sat, disconsolate and dejected upon my thick wad of US currency, at home an auction notification showed up on my smart phone. Lo and behold! They were auctioning several M-S rifles that very month! Most were in lots of 2 or 3 which I quickly calculated would sell far above my means but there were two 1924 Carbines listed singly. One was identified as 7x57 and in less than pristine condition, the other was a runway model in a tight swimsuit for sure and was listed cryptically as 7mm. I quickly referenced the website quoted above and then surveyed the online enablers to see if 7x64 brass and dies could be obtained if necessary. It looked like I could get the European cartridge components if necessary and a bid was quickly entered. Every drawing I could locate showed clearly that it would be quite impossible to chamber a 7x57 in a 7x64 chamber so even though the top of the bridge lacked a caliber stamp it should be easy to ascertain which round was required by the simple expedient of attempting to chamber a loaded 7x57. An excruciating month dragged by and at last I was notified that my bid had held up and as soon as my money and FFL showed up, the rifle was mine. The invoice arrived the next day and my heart nearly broke my front teeth when I saw that auction fees, shipping and insurance had added another $600 to the bill but I'd had five additional weeks to add to the toy fund so no divorce lawyers would be involved in this indiscretion. When it arrived I quickly executed my expedient chambering experiment and a 7x57 with a 140 gr spitzer bullet fit the magazine and chambered without resistance. A couple of telephone calls to shooting partners and I was off to the range. My gunsmith and my very knowledgeable shooting buddy both agreed that this was perhaps the best looking M-S carbine that either had ever seen and that it appeared in every detail to be a first year 1924 carbine based on having a low 3-digit serial number and the appropriate Stoeger imprint on the magazine plate with the correct for the time address. I loaded a single 7x57 and aimed carefully at a paper target set at 50 meters. The shot was great, recoil was pleasantly mild and straight back so that I was still on target. There was a problem with the target though, the hole was missing! I was using the lowest setting of the folding leaf iron sights, no excuse for missing the paper. When I opened the bolt there was a surprise there:


    We folded up camp and went to my gunsmith's shop to cast the chamber because this clearly wasn't right. It's sort of a process to get the wood off, first you have to remove the magazine, unscrew a wood screw that holds the back end of the trigger guard, unscrew the threaded forend of the trigger guard, then remove a front and a rear stock screw. When I pulled the wood off neither my gunsmith nor I could believe our eyes. Rollstamped on the bottom flat of the barrel was the gunsmith's name and 270 Winchester! Turns out the brass was pretty well fireformed had the neck not split trying to fill the 6mm of additional body which left about 1mm of neck in the new case. Amazingly, the case had sealed the chamber well enough that even with the split neck there was no gas relief into the magazine nor back through the bolt and examination of the primer actually looked like there had been fairly low maximum pressure. The cup and core bullet left, no one knows where it went. Measurement of the bore disclosed a standard .2775 bore and a Go + .002 headspace.

    The process employed here cannot be recommended. There was a 100% case failure and the resulting neck is too short for reliable bullet retention. Not to mention that there is potential for catastrophic damage to the firearm and personnel in the area should the case not fully seal against the chamber. 270 Winchester cases are readily available, rendering attempts to create them from 7x57 superfluous.
    rr2241tx
    Timin' has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Grmps's Avatar
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    OUCH

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Brother.THAT is for sure a real kick in the head.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Those types of cases show up at the range now and then. A typical one is a .308 blown out in a .30-06 chamber.
    Another that I saw was a .270 fired in a 7mm Rem Mag. That one split the case and ruined the rifle. It spreadout the receiver walls and blew the magazine out.
    EDG

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Yeah, but not the same or smaller bore diameter on this one. It's a 7mm in a 270, lol, 0.007" larger is not that big a deal I guess.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    There is a thread in military rifles on this site where some testing of destruction was done with several Mausers and a 7.35 Carcano.

    The Carcano had the chamber lengthened to 30-06 without changing the bore. After blowing up 30-06 cases, some 8x57 rounds and .35 Rem ammo was fired through the 7.35 bore.

    Quote Originally Posted by BK7saum View Post
    Yeah, but not the same or smaller bore diameter on this one. It's a 7mm in a 270, lol, 0.007" larger is not that big a deal I guess.
    EDG

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Reverend Al's Avatar
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    Had a similar situation on a MS I bought years ago. The price was very good (should have been a red flag), the gun was in great condition, and the bore was excellent. 8mm rifle. I bought it and when I tried to chamber an 8x57 the bolt wouldn't close. Hmmm ... tried a 7x57 case and the bolt dropped shut with slight effort. On further inspection the barrel was stamped 7.0 (7x57), but the rifle had been rebored to 8mm and an 8mm neck and throat reamer run into the chamber so it was a "wildcat" 8x57mm with a 7x57 shoulder length and an 8mm neck. I fire-formed a few 7x57 cases with cornmeal and confirmed that was exactly the case. A nice looking 8mm cartridge with a long neck and the shoulder back in the 7x57 location. At least that one was a fairly easy fix and we ran an 8x57 chamber reamer into the gun and set the shoulder at the correct length so that the gun was now a proper 8x57 Mauser. You never know what you might find when you buy an old rifle ...
    I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't reached my "Expiry" date!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    A couple of years ago, I purchased a Remington 700 varminter(used) in 243 win. I took it to the range after mounting a scope and proceeded to fire it and sight it in. No problems. I was throwing the brass into a bag when I noticed something funny. The rifle had been rechambered to 243 Ackley Improved.
    Not exactly what I was expecting. It turned out the barrel had been shot out anyway, so the rifle ended up with a new barrel.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    I presently own a Remington 722 that was originally chambered for .222. Someone in the past ran a .223 chambering reamer in it, without changing the markings on the barrel. My stepfather gave it to me, and all I had ever shot in it was .223 rem. If I ever sell or bequeath it, I will need to let the new owner know.

    Wayne
    What doesn't kill you makes you stronger - or else it gives you a bad rash.
    Venison is free-range, organic, non-GMO and gluten-free

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy paul edward's Avatar
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    Many years ago an uncle bought an 1894 Winchester from a fellow who claimed it couldn't hit a barn from inside. To prove his point, a couple rounds of 30/30 were shot at a cardboard box at 25 feet and missed. Uncle picked up the empty cases and made a low offer mumbling something about parts. Fellow went away happy after unloading an inaccurate rifle. Uncle was delighted with his new 38/55. I still have the case he picked up.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master



    skeettx's Avatar
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    Imagine my surprise when I shot a 303 Brit in a P14 Enfield with a military barrel and it came out a 300 Win Mag. Sure was pleased the base held with the rest of the body expanding to seal the chamber
    Last edited by skeettx; 08-20-2018 at 07:56 PM.
    NRA Benefactor 2004 USAF RET 1971-95

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    I was involved with furnishing a company of Vietnamese Marines with 7.62 Nato linked ammo in early 68.They had used all of their ammo and needed something that would work.They were armed with .30-06 caliber weapons.They went happily on their way and never came back to complain.A .30 cal M1 will function fine with 7.62.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I bought some 308 fmj bullets for my 308 when I loaded some up ( luckily starting charge) had hard extraction on first one went home measured them 311 for 303 was not a happy chap ,no harm done but only because my savage is strong ,always measure bullets if I'm buying j bullets now.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeettx View Post
    Imagine my surprise when I shot a 303 Brit in a P14 Enfield with a military barrel and it came out a 300 Win Mag. Sure was pleased the base held with the rest of the body expanding to seal the chamber

    What did the report sound like? What was your 1st thought when you open the bolt? Impressed too that the 303 case expended and held! Todd/3leg

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    was at the range about 10 years ago and found 20 cases stamped 300 win mag, but blown out to 300 weatherby. i thought to myself that someone was darned lucky and hopefully smartened by the experience. at the same range about 2 weeks later, found the same thing. it was in a small town in PA, and i didn't hear of anyone getting killed or maimed by a blown up gun, but you never know. maybe the guy is still shooting 300 winmag ammo out of a 300 weatherby.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    And this is what happens when you have a 275 Rigby on the bench and your buddy hands you a couple of 6.5x54 M/S:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lousy accuracy but no problems, good thing it was a 140 grain cast boolit with a light plinking load. Sealed the chamber, normal recoil, no leading.

    Just minute of side of Cadillac accuracy.

    Feed from magazine nicely, fired nicely, extracted nicely. Took 4 shots before it sank in why the accuracy had dropped through the floor as opposed to 30 minutes earlier.

    Sloooow learner.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    My two 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbines. One is the usual Mannlicher style and the other one is an original takedown model. I form my brass from new .35 Whelen brass. Both have the "swinging gate" type peep-sights. With the carbines weighing only 6-1/2 lbs, they kick like a SOB. The last time I shot them was after I started taking blood thinner for my heart. Left a huge black & blue mark on my shoulder.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry O View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    My two 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbines. One is the usual Mannlicher style and the other one is an original takedown model. I form my brass from new .35 Whelen brass. Both have the "swinging gate" type peep-sights. With the carbines weighing only 6-1/2 lbs, they kick like a SOB. The last time I shot them was after I started taking blood thinner for my heart. Left a huge black & blue mark on my shoulder.
    Time to get a mold and start shooting mouse fart loads. Buddy and I have shot 300+ rounds from Boomer rifles in a day with plinker loads. If we had been shooting factory equivalent loads I doubt we would have made it to 30 rounds before we would have been done for the month. Think 470 N.E./ 450 N.E./ 416 Rigby kind of thumpers.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    15meter: I have tried two of the .375 Winchester moulds I have, 375248 and 375449. Neither one feed thru either gun. The flat nose catches. It needs a round nose or spire point. I understand Lyman used to make one, but it is rare.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry O View Post
    15meter: I have tried two of the .375 Winchester moulds I have, 375248 and 375449. Neither one feed thru either gun. The flat nose catches. It needs a round nose or spire point. I understand Lyman used to make one, but it is rare.
    Had the same problem with a .416 Rigby. Cured it with the lathe:Click image for larger version. 

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    Ground a profile tool, turned after sizing & gas check. The gas check gave it enough strength that I could chuck it without deforming the boolit.

    Fed like a dream after the cosmetic surgery.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check