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Thread: New to casting - I want hard bullets with Wheel weights for 2000 fps loads

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    New to casting - I want hard bullets with Wheel weights for 2000 fps loads

    Hello and greetings from New Zealand.

    I was advised to come here to learn about bullet casting.

    My needs are specific and I want to keep it simple.

    While I have been shooting centre fire rifles for 25+ years and reloading for as long, I am just starting casting.

    I have just bought a 470 NE double rifle and want to shoot 400 gr cast bullets as practice loads - 2000 fps regulated for same POI as full powered 500 gr loads.

    I have just melted wheel weights on a pot and poured out ingots in muffin trays and a mould. Total about 11.3 kg = about 25 lbs.

    I am going to this tomorrow. I have a Lee bottom pour pot & an industrial thermometer.

    I will keep the pot at around 600 F

    Prep the Lee mold. Add 2 oz 50/50 solder for 5 lbs lead. Is this correct for a good mould fill or will the bullets be too soft?

    Should I quench the bullets in water?

    Should I heat treat the bullets in an oven?

    I do not want to make it too complicated and spend money on it. I am not going to make huge numbers. I will not be casting for any other caliber. I do not shoot pistols.

    I would appreciate any help. Thanks

  2. #2
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    You will want to take the pot temperature up to 700 -720°F

    Water quenching wheel weights will get your BHN over 20. Are you sure you need to go that hard?

    You didn't mention gas checks, sizing the boolits or what type of lubrication your using on the boolits

    BTW, welcome to CB. If you decided to start casting to save money, forget it. You won't, you'll just shoot more.
    Casting boolits (lead bullets) properly is a science, once you know the basics, not a hard science.
    There is a lot of good information on CB. The Google search (top right of every forum page) is a gateway to all the knowledge on this forum. IF you can’t find your answer there ask the question (Please be as detailed as possible, pictures help http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...g-screen-shots I would be very surprised if there wasn’t someone on this forum that could answer ANY (firearm related) question you might have)
    http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
    1. Boolits need to be cast .0005 to .003 (normally .002) over the slugged diameter of your barrel for accuracy and to avoid leading. If the fit is wrong nothing else will work right.
    a. slugging a barrel (it is safer to use a brass rod or a steel rod with a couple of coats of tape to avoid damaging your barrel http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm
    b. chamber casting https://www.brownells.com/guntech/ce....htm?lid=10614
    or pound casting http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...rifle-chamber)
    2. the right alloy needs to be used for the velocity and purpose of the boolit (don’t fall into the trap of going with too hard an alloy
    Economical way to easily test lead hardness
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...rdness-testing

    Some alloys harden over time
    http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm
    different alloy’s different end sizes

    Lead alloy calculator
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...4&d=1341560870
    3. velocity the bullet needs to be pushed hard/fast enough to get the proper spin, have the proper velocity to accurately reach the target but not so hard as to be dangerous or strip the lead off in the grooves instead of spinning the boolit..
    The boolit needs to be the right weight for the riffling/twist rate of your barrel
    Powders range from fast to slow, you need to choose the right powder for your barrel length & application.
    Loading manuals list the best powders for certain calibers and boolit weights.
    NEVER use any posted noncommercial load data without first checking commercial load data to see if falls in the safe parameter for your firearm!! There are several firearms out there that can handle much higher pressures than others!!
    Link to free online load data
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...online-sources

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Driver man's Avatar
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    You'll also want a good lube. Check out the stickys. What are you gonna be shooting in Taranaki with that cannon?
    The Bird of Time has but a little way
    To fly-and Lo! the bird is on the wing

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    Welcome brother from far away lands. You dont need supper hard bullets to hit 2000 fps. You can just water drop them drom the mold to experiment with if you feel you need it.

    Now a days i use bullets of air cooled wheel weight at 12BHN. If the wheel weight cash gets low, i cut it with 8 BHN range scrap and that drops the BHN to 10 which still shoots like a champ. I am pushing these at about 2050 fps with MOA accuracy. They are gas checked bullets though in in the 6.5mm and 6.8mm flavors for rifle.

    Dont be shy of slower velocities either. Match the load to the purpose and tune it till it provides acceptable results that are repeatable.

    As far as lubes go, i have no experience with store bought. If you feel like playing with chemisty Bens Red is a great lube. Simple lube is also because its so easy to tweak to suite a purpose [i live in a hotter moist climate and adding some charnoba wax and/or parafin helps alot]. SL-68B can be complicated to make. But if you nail it then its awesome lube. All those lubes i have shot and they all work.

    Hang tight and you will have a bunch of other chiming in with good advice. Or different opinions. Lol thats what makes this fun. Our goals are all the same but our approach is often differenr.

    Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    You do not sound like you will be shooting many cast bullets. For lube, you can pan lube or even finger lube if doing a few dozen at a time. (Cannot see shooting many more than ten at a sitting with that thing) The Lee sizer is cheap.

    Gas checks are suggested for velocities over 1600 fps. A harder alloy will make things a bit easier. Yes it costs a bit more but unless shooting thousands of bullets the incremental cost is not something I worry about. I use a 92-2-6 alloy. Same alloy the commercial casters use.
    Don Verna


  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I tend to do most of my shooting slower than your target.

    The vast majority of my bullets are 50% clip on wheel weights, 50% soft lead, range scrap, etc. And 1-2% tin mostly for mold fill.

    Over 1400-1500 fps you will want gas checks, or a card wad to protect the base.

    Card wad can be as simple as finding a gasket punch of the right size and some thin uncorrigated cardboard.

    As to water quenching, I would suggest trying a few, but those will be quite hard. Very possibly too hard.

    "Add 2 oz 50/50 solder for 5 lbs lead. Is this correct for a good mould fill"

    2 oz x 8 = 1 lb, or half a pound of tin. 5 lbs lead x 8 = 40 lbs.

    I think your in the range where it should work well mold wise.

    Tin is never first choice for hardening, as it takes 3 times as much to do the same as Antimony.
    But, tin is awesome for getting good mold fill out, and nice shiny boolits.

    The Wheel Weights have some antimony in there so you should be good.

    Overall it seems to me like you should be set for a good go.

    Watch out for the tinsel fairy. Never drop cold/damp into hot lead.

    Keep your eyes open for Pewter at second hand stores. Being mostly tin it is a cheaper alternative to solder.

    "470 NE double rifle" Man you are living the dream! So, we want pictures, lots of pictures, rifle, boolits, loaded rounds, targets. Lots of updates. Your going to be living this one for all of us who for one reason or another can not. So please share and share generously.

    Yell if you get in trouble.
    Enjoy the journey.

    This may be a helpful read for you.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-DO-THEY-WORK

  7. #7
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Maximum heat to start casting. Pressure cast, spout in contact with mold.

    Alloy will need oven heat treated bullets. Gas check the bullet. The 470 is rated at 41,000 PSI . Cast bullets don't work at this pressure level. I would add linotype instead of 50/50.

    Slug the bore, size .001" larger. 400gr lead at 2000 fps with accuracy, i dont see it happening. All a guess. Good luck.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Nitro-Express

    Starting loads with 500 gr jacketed are in the 30,000 PSI range.
    Last edited by 243winxb; 07-20-2018 at 12:57 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



    Springfield's Avatar
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    That's only about 425 bullets. Unless you are recovering your lead it sounds like you need more.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
    Maximum heat to start casting. Pressure cast, spout in contact with mold.

    Alloy will need oven heat treated bullets. Gas check the bullet. The 470 is rated at 41,000 PSI . Cast bullets don't work at this pressure level. I would add linotype instead of 50/50.

    Slug the bore, size .001" larger. 400gr lead at 2000 fps with accuracy, i dont see it happening. All a guess. Good luck.
    Rifles are not my thing, but I've had no problem getting accuracy at those pressures or velocities. I've shot plenty of 30-30 cast with a gas check with a max load of IMR 30-31. Accuracy was about 3" at 100 yards, and that is as well as I can shoot open sights. That's right around 2000 fps, and 40K psi. Alloy was air cooled lyman #5.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Key words from OP-
    regulated for same POI . 2000 fps. Plain base bullet.
    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm May want to try some .
    Last edited by 243winxb; 07-20-2018 at 02:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    Just when you thought it was safe to read this again....

    Powder coating with baked on electrostatic paint allow one to increase velocity without "scuffing" lead in the rifling. Baked on PC or powder coat won't come off if you pound the bullet flat and is very slick surface. I use it with Lyman #2 lead alloy, gas checked, 70 grain bullet in .223 caliber running a case full of varget. Never used a crono on velocity but I expect it is around 2000 fps. I find little difference between these and store bought jacketed ammo of similar weight.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Wow. Thanks you guys.

    I have a friend in the US who has shot a lot of double rifles and did a lot of research on the CEB bullets and much more. He advised me not to worry about sizing or gas checks as long as the bullets are cast with good mold fill out.

    Yes I will be using Orange magic to pan lube the bullets.

    Rifle is a 2006 VC so no worry about bore size. I will be careful with bullet specs.

    I have some nice firm felt (about 15mm thick) and a 12mm wad punch so I I will lube those. I will use a card wad under the bullet to avoid the felt wad sticking to the lubed bullet base.

    I also have some #4 shot that I removed to reload with Bismuth. I will put that in the pot too.

    I tried to find info on powder coating. Not able to source the right material here in NZ.

    Rifle should arrive next week.

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    Last edited by Nakihunter; 07-20-2018 at 09:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    I have some nice firm felt (about 15mm thick) and a 12mm wad punch so I I will lube those. I will use a card wad under the bullet to avoid the felt wad sticking to the lubed bullet base.
    Ever hear of a "Ringed barrel"?

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    "I have some nice firm felt (about 15mm thick) and a 12mm wad punch so I I will lube those. I will use a card wad under the bullet to avoid the felt wad sticking to the lubed bullet base."

    I must not be understanding your powder selection or loading process. You are using a smokeless bullet lube. You are using a card wad under the bullet and a lubricated felt wad under the card wad which will expose the powder to the bullet lube? Any consideration to lube contamination of the powder? Are you using smokeless or Black Powder? Also see post #14 about a "ringed barrel".

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    243 Winxb - yes I have read about ringed barrels. I have Graeme Wrights book on shooting the English double rifle. Yes, I realise that some wad material can cause ringing. As long as the wad is slightly compressed between bullet and powder column, it should be fine. The theory is to move the wad column and bullet at the same time, as one unit and not have the wad stop under the bullet before moving further. I also have the Lyman cast bullet book.

    Dusty, I will use only smokeless powder.

    My friend said that I will need a card wad at both ends of the felt wad to a) prevent powder contamination from lube and b) to prevent the felt wad from sticking to the bullet base. He has actually pulled out wads from targets - still stuck to bullets - but they act like a rudder and shoot wild. The felt wad is only for cast bullets. I could also buy them from eBay but 470 cal is not easy to find in felt.

    I will be using foam filler rod cut to 5/8 inch for filling air space with Re15 loads. This is also standard practice among a few guys i corresponded with.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you for the reply. My concern would be that it appeared that you were trying to load smokeless powders in the same manner as Black Powder and being intent on filling all space in the cartridge with "something" might raise pressures dramatically. Generally best accuracy is found by loading the case to nearly fill or be lightly compressed with the powder selected and fillers are not necessary. By using fillers and wads, your 400 grain bullet is no longer at 400 grains because you need to add the weight of the added material. I have no experience with the cartridge you mention, but would follow the suggestions to use a reloading powder with an appropriate burn rate to nearly fill the case and avoid wads and fillers all together.

    I think you have already decided that you are going to make the gun shoot what you think you want it to, and not follow the more reliable method of letting the rifle tell you what it wants to shoot best. You have chosen a more difficult path and I wish you luck and stay safe in your quest. Dusty

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

    Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    Yes, it does apear you are attempting to shoot smokeless powder like black powder.

    Loose the felt, cards and grease cookies. Thats to keep the fouling soft and help with accurracy in black powder. Then only use the filler if the gun tells you it needs it. There are lots of powderd available that give good case fill or are not position sensitive.

    Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    Dusty

    My habit in life when preparing for something is to get deep in analysis to the point of being obsessive & even over thinking.

    That said, my goals are Simple, Realistic and focused.

    1. I want the rifle to shoot to POA - well regulated with standard loads
    2. I want some lighter practice loads also regulated
    3. I want some cast loads to reduce costs by $2.50 per shot - $5 for left & right - also regulated
    4. I do not want leading in the barrels
    5. I want to avoid a long and tedious rout to the solution

    Now what i have done so far is to read a LOT, ask many friends who actually load for 470NE and other doubles with cast bullets. etc.

    My plan with wads is based on their experience.

    I am still learning

    Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated



    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    Thank you for the reply. My concern would be that it appeared that you were trying to load smokeless powders in the same manner as Black Powder and being intent on filling all space in the cartridge with "something" might raise pressures dramatically. Generally best accuracy is found by loading the case to nearly fill or be lightly compressed with the powder selected and fillers are not necessary. By using fillers and wads, your 400 grain bullet is no longer at 400 grains because you need to add the weight of the added material. I have no experience with the cartridge you mention, but would follow the suggestions to use a reloading powder with an appropriate burn rate to nearly fill the case and avoid wads and fillers all together.

    I think you have already decided that you are going to make the gun shoot what you think you want it to, and not follow the more reliable method of letting the rifle tell you what it wants to shoot best. You have chosen a more difficult path and I wish you luck and stay safe in your quest. Dusty

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    You can always powder coat and gas check a softer alloy. That's what I do.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check