Lyman 452424 with square lube grooves ?

[RayinNH]

45 2.1 PM back at you...Ray

[mroliver77]

There are some of us waiting to do group buys on the Keith molds as soon as .45 can do the drawings. Catshooter wants to do a group buy on all the kieths and I have committed to help in any way I can. I think these in 6 cavity would go over in a big way.
.45 2 1, Kieth also deisigned versions of hs bullets with hollow base for revolvers with "generous" throats. Somewhere in his mind he was thinking throat size too. I am excited to see this move ahead. Jay

[floodgate]

mroliver:

".45 2 1, Kieth also deisigned versions of hs bullets with hollow base for revolvers with "generous" throats. Somewhere in his mind he was thinking throat size too."

I believe Keith stated that the main reason for the hollow-based versions was to get the weights back towards the standard weights for the bullets of the time. His HB #358431 version came in at 160 grs., vs. the 175 grs. of the plain-base #358429. (158 grs. was the "standard " weight for the .38 Spl. RN's. and 150 grs. for the .357's.) He may also have been thinking about getting the center-of-gravity a bit further forward for better stability.

floodgate

PS: Nice quote from Freud!

[StarMetal]

Floodgate,

But doesn't stability become better with the weight more towards the rear? Thus the reason of match hollow point bullets? I mean afterall you certainly don't need a hollow point bullet for punching paper targets.

Joe

[45 2.1]

From what I have read by Keith in his articles, he mentioned that he thought the 358429 was to heavy for the 38 spl. He said he placed a hollow base on it to reduce the weight. Keith always said to size bullets to groove diameter, use an undersize expansion plug, 16:1 alloy or harder, size cases full length and use a heavy crimp. If you check some revolvers from his era, I think you will find the same range of oversize throats we enjoy now. The soft alloy with tight case fit and heavy crimp let those bullets slug up to fit the throats and give good accuracy. Keith had some very poor brass to contend with also along with some powders that would not make it on the commercial scene presently.

[Bass Ackward]

Keith always said to size bullets to groove diameter, use an undersize expansion plug, 16:1 alloy or harder, size cases full length and use a heavy crimp.

Bob,

Elmer covered all the bases at one time or another in his life. Different beliefs for different calibers too.

A lot of his bore diameter sizing was because of his 44 Mags. He had special made guns that did not have sloppy throats.

"The 6 1/2" barreled gun was a masterpiece. both as to accuracy and careful fitting and sighting." Elmer Keith, "Sixguns", page 309.

But his opinions differed as to sizing when it came to standard factory fodder.

"This .001 of an inch is the diameter over groove measurements, which I prefer for most sixgun loads," Elmer Keith, "Sixguns", page 237.

"With light loads and comparitively light, short bullets, the diameter of the sized bullet can be as much as .003 of an inch over your groove diameter of your barrel," Elmer Keith, "Sixguns" Page 237


So Elmer had a realistic outlook on sizing much like many here have found also. We aren't that different.

[floodgate]

Joe:

Even though useta be a physicist, I don't know all there is to know (or even a significant part of it) about rapidly-rotating, fast-moving objects like boolits. But, generally, more weight aft of the "center of form" tends to reduce stability, and vice-versa - think of an arrow: heavy point forward, high drag from the feathers aft (or a VW "bug" or rear-engine Porsche, if you've ever tried to drive one in a strong cross-wind) . For rotating bodies it "stands to reason" (whatever that is worth) that it would be best if the center of mass and center of form were pretty close together - the hollow base cancelling out the smaller mass of the nose in the case of #385431. As to the use of hollow points in match bullets, the reason I have read several places (and the one that lets the military slip by using hollow-point bullets in combat) is that the factories get better weight consistency and symmetry if they leave a small hollow point than if they try to just fill up the core and close up the nose completely; that is, with a jacket closed at the base and the lead filler inserted from the front. But, like I said, I am far from an expert on the subject.

floodgate