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Thread: C&B complete repro or ignatz parts?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    C&B complete repro or ignatz parts?

    This might not be the right topic for "Muzzleloading" area but it's black powder related and maybe the members here can help… I’m having a tough time figuring out just what this 1851 Navy really is. Looks like any one of a number of reproductions, but there’s no makers markings or proof marks. It reminds me of the really old repros from the 70’s but the cylinder looks much older than the rest. For a moment I thought the cylinder might be an original because of the high degree of corrosion. But the fit to the frame is tight and is timed perfectly with the barrel.

    There are some residual marks on the side of the frame above the trigger guard where it looks like someone stoned off a stamping. The only other marks are “06” or “90” on various parts. 78 stamped inside the backstrap and “36” stamped behind the trigger guard which is the caliber and 773 serial number in the usual place. It’s from an estate I’m helping to ID stuff but do not have any history on it. Doesn’t look like any Rigarmi, EIG, Palmetto or Armi San Marco I’ve ever seen. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    What were the other guns like? If the owner had a collection of originals that would be an interesting tidbit.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    There isn't a collection original Colts, just one or two repros which were ASM manufactured. I'm just perplexed by the absence of any import or proof marks anywhere.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    It sound like someone removed them. Since it is a replica black powder arm, I don't think that would be a violation of Federal law. It might violate Massachusetts law though. As long as there was no intention to deceive, there's no harm, and he might have enjoyed bragging about his "original" gun. You never know. From the looks of it, the owner did shoot it.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Czech_too's Avatar
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    You've obviously removed the barrel, nothing under the loading lever?
    On a friends revolver, I found the mfg. under it. Not where I expected to find it.
    Cruffler

    genealogy, another area of interest

    feedback - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...9613-czech_too

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Under the lever was the first place I looked, fully expecting to see some kind of stamping. Maybe it's like Tatume said, they were removed at some point long ago and refinished.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Could be a kit gun also with the markings filed off in finishing. The screw slot on the bolt spring looks to be eytie by the size of the slot colts were wider.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    on other m-l sites they are real prod of there defarb work plus aging. I almost snapped up a colt pocket model years ago at a local antique shop. I was talking about it and a fellow says I built that one about 3 years ago.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I would take some of the screws and nipples to a local hardware store and use their thread measuring tools to see if the threads are metric or standard.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    My guess would be an early DGG. Maybe remove loading lever and look for remnants under pivot area for a circle about a 1/4" with the DGG in it. That is where mine are but maybe someone scrubbed her really good with proofs possibly missing from RH side. I have a couple DGG 36's and the colt screwdrivers did not fit, had to customize some others and keep for them. Been a while but there were screws guard/backstrap that were .5mm smaller on thread than Armi San Marco, Pietta IIRC.
    Last edited by Gtek; 07-17-2018 at 09:22 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks Gtek. I removed the lever but no mark under it. It'll just remain a mystery. Thanks to everyone that offered suggestions.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Could have been a kit gun. I know the Navy Arms Remington I had in the 70's had most of the markings removed during the polishing of the gun. It might or might not have had a serial number on it somewhere, I don't remember.

    And, it was purchased by mail when I was in Germany and then shipped back to the US when we moved (in the mail).

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    My guess is that it's either a kit gun or a production piece that someone made an attempt to "antique" and quite possibly pass off as an original.

    First, there is no roll engraving on the cylinder from what I'm seeing. There are those that "de-farb" - particularly in the re-enactment community. I know of an individual who had a compete set of Colt hand stamps and he made a practice of counterfeiting Colt 1860 Army Revolvers - and he was well known for it and his intent to defraud.

    If you look at modern production revolvers, the serial numbers are in a straight line on the bottom of the barrel assembly (by the trigger guard). The serial number appears to be hand stamped on this one as the numbers are not in a straight line nor are they uniform. My guess is that someone took either a kit gun or a production gun and wanted to make it look old. Not knowing the age of the revolver, the pitting on the front of the cylinder may be from not cleaning it and letting it set to corrode, or, there are ways to produce this look on steel. IIRC, clorox bleach is one of them and I believe I remember talking with a fellow who made reproduction knives for those who do the pre-1830 thing and he used that process.

    What do the cylinder chambers look like and the bore? I'm guessing that they show pitting as well, but if not, that would be a big clue that it's been antiqued. Check the threads to see if they are metric. Not all threads are metric on repros as some of these C & B revolvers were made in this country in the 1960s and they used standard threads.

    It's an interesting piece and certainly has the "look" and would appeal to the right person for a wall hanger. If the chambers and bore were decent, then no reason not to shoot it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    The bore looks much too good to be an antique. The chambers look a little rougher. I've got some oil on the nipples for a couple days to soak so I can get one out and check threads. One nipple is missing and the threaded hole seems larger than other C&B repros. I'm curious if it's been drilled out and retapped or if all the nipple diameters are that large. Just more fun things to keep me tinkering at night instead of getting in trouble elsewhere.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    don't put too much in the threads. some of the early American guns used metric. I have a uberti 1861 navy colt that uses 12-28 threads for the nipples.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check