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Thread: Sharps? Variants? BPCR? (Or, "Feeling what might be a developing 'itch'.")

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
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    Sharps? Variants? BPCR? (Or, "Feeling what might be a developing 'itch'.")

    I will give myself the credit of not asking a group of willing enablers to talk me off the ledge regarding a jump into BP, Sharps (et al). A few decades, maybe a bit more than just a few, ago, the thought of the Sharps was as in my young, pure mind, the stuff of legend. That view hasn't changed. So, I have been mining the world wide web for a while, answering some questions and finding more.

    Back 'when', the thought of the Sharps was not cluttered with the 'slight' list of piddly details. At least not in my mind. Barrel lengths, weights and to some degree chamber options are mostly sorted. (I did find an article someone linked to on the board that helped bridge the confusion some on rifle markings versus some of the cartridge definitions, more inquiry to come on that though.)

    But, actions. I'm limiting myself to the falling blocks, there's plenty of variation available and little more to wish for regarding strength. The 1885 Winchester (and re-makes) are viable firearms and have some good things to be said for them. I don't know enough about the Hepburns to really have an opionion. The Sharps model variations, I really haven't run across any great discussion of benefits of the variants, so *specifically* which one.. that's a fine question.

    What are the differences functionally, among the '74, '75, '77?? Granted, that can be taken or given as a generic difference or could be specific to a given manufacturer, not discounting that not all makers offer all models.. or have.

    The '74 seems to be the common and possibly (?) heavier action. (Which can get into off center hammer movement & effects on accuracy, etc.)
    The '77 looks like it shaves some weight off the action, which can go into a heavier barrel?


    Somewhere down the line, someone will ask, 'What are you using this one for?'. Well, either some kind of local shoots or range. I would list the possibility of hunting with it, but really if I'm hunting 'modern firearm' I have other choices, and frankly for big stuff I look to the bow. I really don't know enough about BPCR 'games' to hold forth any aspirations there of. So far.

    Thanks!

    Nick

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    Boolit Master
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    An "answer" to your post could take several paragraphs and get into a whole lot of extraneous horse manure about a lot of differences, advantages and disadvantages between makes and actions and cartridges. I would recommend one thing, the 45-70 as your first cartridge. As this is your first endeavor into BPC rifles and it doesn't appear you're looking for a dedicated target or hunting rifle, the rest of my answer is simple. Get the one that puts the biggest grin on your face and go forth, happily slaying steel, paper and game.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    An "answer" to your post could take several paragraphs and get into a whole lot of extraneous horse manure about a lot of differences, advantages and disadvantages between makes and actions and cartridges. I would recommend one thing, the 45-70 as your first cartridge. As this is your first endeavor into BPC rifles and it doesn't appear you're looking for a dedicated target or hunting rifle, the rest of my answer is simple. Get the one that puts the biggest grin on your face and go forth, happily slaying steel, paper and game.
    Best advice you could hope for.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Second on the advise! The 45-70 is an easy one to reload.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
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    Gents,
    Thanks for the thoughts. Truly. But 'it's about the actions'.

    Trust me, the collective record is rife with discussions of caliber / cartridge. The .45-70 is a quite logical and predictable recommendation for a 'starter'. Or the 'half-starter', if you will.

    Well back before I had a thought about having a gray hair, my dad, younger brother and self set up to cast and reload for dad's trapdoor. Not exactly a squirrel rifle but a heck of a lot of fun, albeit very 'sub-potential' light loads. Since then I've much more recently crossed paths with a Browning 1885 in 7mm Rem Mag, of which I like the rifle more than the cartridge. I really like the falling block and part of the kid in me giggles each time the hammer dives out of sight. So, a .45-70 in an '85 is viable. Probably pretty practical too. And maybe down in third place on 'the list'.

    But, Sharps it is not. And, as noted before, the one thing I've not found is a conversation about the the 'benefits' of the later model Sharp actions. Or disadvantages if there are. Or are those others only an aesthetic difference?

    Thanks again,

    Nick

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    Boolit Grand Master

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    Best short answer get Mike's book, Buffalo Rifles of the Old West and start reading.

  7. #7
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    Pretty much economics, aesthetics, historical association and whatever floats your boat.

    The 74 Sharps, the Hepburn, the Ballard and the original Winchester are the easiest to take apart for cleaning and maintenance. The Sharps has the most nuance if you’re into the buffalo-hunting era.

    If you aren’t into such stuff that much, but still want a competitive BPCR, the C. Sharps 1875 Model is probably the best value for the money. I think you can get a single-set trigger for one now. It’s more easily manufactured and less popular than a 74, so the buyer gets a price break. Hepburns and Ballards in high grades are very expensive. Our expert shooters around here say the Ballard set triggers can be set to extreme lightness, while those on the Hepburns are not all that great.

    The side vs central hammer deal has pretty much been debunked. If you don’t want to manually half-cock the hammer before opening the action, get a Ballard, Hepburn or Winchester.

    The 77 Sharps has a lighter action than the 74. Since there are no shoots under the Creedmoor 10-lb weight limit any more, this one is also pretty much a matter of individual taste.

    You might get Mike Venturino’s Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. He has a chapter that compares the available actions and their perceived advantages/disadvantages.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Several little things. Look at and handle as many as possible of the sharps and other falling blocks you are interested in, get an idea of what feels right. If close attend a shillouette match or 2 as a spectator and watch, ask questions and observe. Check out Pedersolis, C SHarps, Shiloh Sharps, CPA websites and see what is offered and or available. There are a lot of options available. A 74 Sharps in 45-70 will handle almost any task given it. Look around and get information from the different makers. Pedersoli is getting good reveues and offers a lot of variations off the shelf. C Sharps, Shloh and CPA build just what you want.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    There really isn't any "hard" to load for cartridges, I would suggest staying with cases shorter than 2 5/8 in either straight or bottleneck configurations , mostly on account of the amount of powder consumed each time you pull the trigger. Loading cartridges where you get 70 or there about rounds per pound of powder eats up cases of powder in short order.
    If a 74 Sharps is what you want then Shiloh is the place to go.
    If an 1885 variant is your choice then C Sharps is the choice.
    If a Hepburn then DZ Arms.
    The 75 model from CSA is a decent choice for tight budgets.
    Ballards are hard to come by and not inexpensive when you do find one.
    Can't speak to the 77's yet, but I do have one from Shiloh on order.
    Don't overlook the occasional bargain on one of the 1878 Sharps that crops up on occasion, built either on an original action, or one from the Borchardt rifle company (no longer in business)
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    If you get a chance to go to Big Timber, MT you can go to both C Sharps and Shiloh. They are across the street from each other. I chose the Shiloh because I liked the people better and their product is second to none. You can also put hands on several different examples and make your choice. I really like mine, wouldn't change it for the world. Got a Montana Rough Rider in 50-90, it kills moose with aplomb! Jim

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I recommend a cheaper alternative. A nice 43 Argentine Mauser would fit the bill for trying out BP without breaking the bank.

    I did just fondle a Uberti 1873 Win clone in 45LC for long enough I was getting stares from some of the customers in the Cabelas
    I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled

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    anick57 - i think you already have a clear and firm grasp of what you want and what you'll do with it. the rest is up to your disposable cash and how long you wish to wait to get hooked up and get shooting.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Don't forget the rolling block, great old time action, certainly strong enough for BPCR, lots of old actions kicking around.

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    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    +1 on the rolling blocks. Extremely simple mechanism, and not infrequently they win prizes in BPCR matches. Their only fault IMHO is that the firing pin has to be watched to make very sure it is free in the breechblock. It can get stuck, and then it's possible for the gun to fire out-of-battery if the breech is closed smartly.

    And then of course, there's Bill Cody's actual buffalo rifle, which is on display in the Cody Museum. It's a Trapdoor Springfield. Yup. Seen it with my own eyes.

    I wouldn't recommend a Ballard for a beginner. They are fussy to keep clean and in tune, (I have several), extractor is weak, and unless you can afford a forged receiver model, they are frankly rather dangerous in the large calibers, especially when used with smokeless.
    Cognitive Dissident

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    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
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    I have Mike Venturino’s, "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West", on order. Sounds like a great lead for details. Thanks KC and Bent!

    I think for this run, the falling blocks are giving me more than enough choices. Not to throw rocks at the Mauser, but it is a bolt. JonP, I did get my hands on a similar Uberti, a rather gorgeous '73 in .38 WCF which I am able to fondle as desired. Took a while to find that one but so far, so good.

    MT and USCRA, good info on the rolling blocks. I'm more interested in them in an historic sense than having one, so far anyway. The Martini is in a similar category. More of a 'know of them' than known to any real depth.

    Bent, Country and Don, you guys have some solid tips and pointers. Pity about the Hepburn triggers, but then again, that does whittle away at the list a bit. Not a bad thing. We'll see what comes up in the reading, but the range observation trip(s) are going to have weight of their own.

    RFD, I'm not sure how firm I am really, but I'm at least closer. If anything, I've at least gotten my criteria sorted better. Perhaps the firmest item on the decision tree is that not a single rifle is going to cover all uses of interest. Having little to no real target rifle background, that one is a trick question, but very pertinent.

    I got to pic Silver Jack's mind on the local BP and some conversation on Sharps a few weeks ago while we were re-homing some of his surplus .38 WCF brass and such. By the end of that get together I was pretty sure that I was probably looking at a minimum of two rifles... not real sure if two is the right number, come to think of it. Figuring out which is first up is a bit of a key point. Again, a great topic to take to the range for observation too.

    Right now I'm seeing three potential uses. Mid-range target, which is of interest, but has the question of, 'How interested?', yet to be answered but is a pretty specific use firearm. Off-hand target, which is a bit of a broad category, depending if I go just as informal range or more to a 'shoot' environment. And lastly, the hunter / plinker. I suspect that the last two *might* be covered with one rifle adequately... or not.

    So in a sense, firmer.

    Thanks all!

    Nick

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANick57 View Post
    I
    Right now I'm seeing three potential uses. Mid-range target, which is of interest, but has the question of, 'How interested?', yet to be answered but is a pretty specific use firearm. Off-hand target, which is a bit of a broad category, depending if I go just as informal range or more to a 'shoot' environment. And lastly, the hunter / plinker. I suspect that the last two *might* be covered with one rifle adequately... or not.

    So in a sense, firmer.

    Thanks all!

    Nick
    You could uses 1 rifle to cover all of your stated intended uses. Either a sharps with a standard weight barrel or an 1885 with a #3 weight barrel. Keep the length 30 inches or shorter.
    Chamber's would fall due to readily available cases, and reloading dies, to either the 40-65 or 45-70.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Formal offhand target shooters (i.e. the immigrant German "Schuetzen" shooters) determined by 1900 that their best calibers fell between .28 and .33 - even the venerable .38-55 gave too much recoil to let a man shoot a score without excessive fatigue, unless he was built like Paul Bunyan. 'Course a score for those guys was 100 shots in a day at 200 yards. That game is still played today, but you might find something less demanding.
    Cognitive Dissident

  18. #18
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    There are calibers for old single shots that are either more available brass and does, or have a reputation for being easier to work up loads for. There are also calibers that or cases that are either extremely high priced or take a good amount of work to form up cases to load with. So I'd start with thinking how much time and money you're willing to invest in getting a rifle shooting. Then make a choice on what calibers fit into that price and time frame.
    It's pretty tough to go wrong with a .45-70 as a first choice for BPCR or general fun shooting. A .40-65 is also a close 2nd and I personally like it as much as the .45-70 myself. Either will have readily available brass, and very reasonably priced dies. So both are excellent choices. The .45-70 has more variety of makers offering the caliber than the .40-65 does, but still enough choices for either.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Of the falling blocks I much prefer shooting the Browning Highwall.
    Simply open
    Load
    Close
    Fire

    Compared to the rigamarole of the Sharps
    Pull hammer to half cock
    Open
    Load
    Close
    Pull hammer to full cock
    Set the trigger
    Fire
    EDG

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Of the falling blocks I much prefer shooting the Browning Highwall.
    All good until you have to take that Japanese "High Wall" apart. By most accounts it's a nightmare inside.

    And I'm underwhelmed with the way the 1885 leaves the hammer at full cock. Unsafe IMHO. Only advantage is faster followup shot, but how often does one really need that?
    Cognitive Dissident

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check