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Thread: Sharps? Variants? BPCR? (Or, "Feeling what might be a developing 'itch'.")

  1. #61
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    ... the shooter was pushing hard forward to seat a stubborn round with his thumb against the lug on the breech bolt when a 45/90 went off ...
    that the round would not seat properly into the chamber is immediate grounds that there is a problem, and that cartridge should be removed and not forced into the chamber. this is first and foremost an operator issue.

  2. #62
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    Don, I saw the same thing, or nearly the same, happen back in the 80's when a guy did just as you described. He first pulled the trigger and nothing happened and while he was "fumbling" around with it trying to determine what happened he bumped briskly forward on the block with the heel of his hand and the hammer fell causing the rifle to fire into the ground at his feet, so yes it can happen! When the rifle recoiled backward the spur of the block ripped a rather nasty gash in the web of his hand between the thumb and finger but the situation was not nearly as bad as it could have been because someone could easily have been killed. This accident was probably due to not fully understanding the gun's design along with grossly improper fail-to-fire followup procedure, regardless of rifle design pounding on any part of the thing even with a bare hand (as in this case) especially with the hammer in the cock position is definitely not the proper way to deal with a FTF!

    BTW, ANY part that engages the hammer to hold it in the cock position is referred to as the sear even if it is an integral part of the trigger.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  3. #63
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Mate - you are not thinking about this at all !!!!! the story as told is the shooter was pushing hard forward to seat a stubborn round with his thumb against the lug on the breech bolt when a 45/90 went off - his thumb took the whole recoil - if it didnt break it or dislocate the thumb its a miracle and I bet it still hurts years later ------if you read and comprehend Dons statement that YOU quoted above - its plain he didnt say the hammer did it "his thumb, which was still exerting pressure on the thumb piece of the block" ----this dumb old Aussie got it first time around -- Mr marlinman93 ???? to busy argufyin to read it right !!!!
    I got it, but it still seems less than plausible to think someone could first try to shoot a Rolling Block with a cartridge that didn't want to chamber. Then pull the trigger dropping the hammer on a less than fully closed breech block. And if that wasn't enough warning, he then pushes hard enough on the breech block (without first re-cocking the hammer) to drop the hammer and break his thumb with recoil.
    If all this makes sense to you, and sounds feasible, then I'm not sure I'd want to shoot next to anyone who could think it makes sense, or ignore all the warning signs as it happened. Anyone who ignored all that deserves to break their thumb. But they could have saved some steps and just put their thumb on an anvil and hit it with a hammer.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by marlinman93 View Post
    I got it, but it still seems less than plausible to think someone could first try to shoot a Rolling Block with a cartridge that didn't want to chamber.

    Not trying to argue at all but having witnessed a similar incident to what Don described it does make sense if you look closely at what happens. First the block is back only SLIGHTLY but even that is enough to block the hammer from falling, just as it is designed to do. Although the hammer can not fall due to being stopped by the slightly opened breech block it does move slightly allowing the sear to become disengaged and leaves the hammer resting on the block, push forward on the block with any amount of force as long as it's sufficient to finish closing the block and then the hammer will no longer be supported by the block. Since at that point the block no longer stops the hammer and the hammer was allowed to fall forward far enough to disengage the sear before contacting the partially open block the hammer will be free to fall after the block is pushed fully forward! Seems quite simple to me and I can only assume that the incident I witnessed (the first falling block rifle I had ever seen BTW) and the one Don described were very similar. In the one I saw the guy simply bumped the block forward with the heel of his hand then the hammer, which had been resting on the barely open breech block was now no longer supported since the block was fully closed at that point, instantly fell causing the rifle to fire. Although the rifle functioned normally after the hammer fell and no part, either the block or hammer, moved from it's normal position during firing the recoil simply pushed the entire rifle back with obviously sufficient force to cause injury from contact with the breech block spur.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  5. #65
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    I spent an hour today with a half dozen different Rolling Blocks trying to duplicate this "slam fire" for lack of a better term. I even went so far as to slightly oval case mouths on empty cases to try to create a little resistance so the cartridges would resist chambering, and thus create this perfect storm where a hammer could fall on the breech block, and then push the block closed to have it drop and strike the primer. It wasn't easy to do, that's for sure!
    Either the trigger would not trip because the hammer was back far enough to disconnect the trigger, or the case wouldn't allow the block to be closed just enough to allow the hammer to drop and trigger to release. I was able to begin closing the block a little at a time as I held the trigger squeezed, and then use my other hand to push the block slowly closed until the trigger would finally trip and the hammer would rest on the block. But it was a juggling act to make it happen, and the difference between the block being fully closed and a few thousandths open, allowing the hammer to drop, but not clear the block was very marginal, and not easily accomplished. It was tough to have a case with enough resistance to hold the block open, but also easy enough to push the block closed with the hammer resting on it adding friction.
    It only reinforced the idea that the shooter would have to ignore a problem to make this whole scenario play out. Every Rolling Block I took from my safe had the same interference fit, and resisted any effort to easily drop on a slightly open breech block. It might happen, but not without negligence on the part of the shooter.

  6. #66
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    mm93 - were they originals, repros, etc?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by marlinman93 View Post
    I spent an hour today with a half dozen different Rolling Blocks trying to duplicate this "slam fire" for lack of a better term. I even went so far as to slightly oval case mouths on empty cases to try to create a little resistance so the cartridges would resist chambering, and thus create this perfect storm where a hammer could fall on the breech block, and then push the block closed to have it drop and strike the primer. It wasn't easy to do, that's for sure!
    Either the trigger would not trip because the hammer was back far enough to disconnect the trigger, or the case wouldn't allow the block to be closed just enough to allow the hammer to drop and trigger to release. I was able to begin closing the block a little at a time as I held the trigger squeezed, and then use my other hand to push the block slowly closed until the trigger would finally trip and the hammer would rest on the block. But it was a juggling act to make it happen, and the difference between the block being fully closed and a few thousandths open, allowing the hammer to drop, but not clear the block was very marginal, and not easily accomplished. It was tough to have a case with enough resistance to hold the block open, but also easy enough to push the block closed with the hammer resting on it adding friction.
    It only reinforced the idea that the shooter would have to ignore a problem to make this whole scenario play out. Every Rolling Block I took from my safe had the same interference fit, and resisted any effort to easily drop on a slightly open breech block. It might happen, but not without negligence on the part of the shooter.
    I agree !!! but poor (negligent) gun handling is way too common - and a lot of guys who are perfectly safe and competent normally, they get hyped up (nervous) on the line and respond poorly to malfunctions

  8. #68
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    For sure the incident I saw was shooter error but the whole thing started with a tightly fitting case, I remember that part well since the guy was trying to sell this rifle and was demonstrating to me and another guy how it worked, as I said earlier this was the first Roller I had ever seen. The other rounds he had were checked and most would not chamber properly and we determined the rifle was probably ok but I declined to buy it anyway, I doubt this incident would have happened with properly prepared ammunition. For that reason it's not surprising you had difficulty duplicating the problem as I would think it very unlikely that you would have poorly prepared ammo that would not chamber properly, regardless the shooter in that case was in error because of the way he handled the problem.

    Unfortunately no matter how safe the basic design nor what kind of lawyer inspired safeties are incorporated those with Darwin Syndrome will always find a way!
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  9. #69
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    mm93 - were they originals, repros, etc?
    All mine are original Remington Rolling Block rifles. All are Sporting models, no military reworks. They vary from mostly #1 Sporters, but also #1 1/2, #2, #4 models. Only looked at my #1 rifles for trying to create this issue.

  10. #70
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    Some of the very early Italian rolling blocks (with brass trigger guards) had very short supporting surfaces on the hammer. I think the actions were sold by Numrich in the early Eighties. With the hammer cocked and the block closed, you could look down into the action through the square gap ahead of the hammer. A friend owned the one I saw, which was barreled to .50-70. He never had any trouble with it, though. But a setup like this would act as an auxiliary sear, catching the hammer at the end of the support and allowing it to click down from there when the block was pushed a little more forward. An original, with full support, would increase the sliding friction as the hammer went down, and probably fail to fire.

    But some people have truly wild talents. Getting even an original to go off is not beyond the abilities of these gifted individuals.

    Rolling blocks are very critical of ammunition, and I don’t think there is any place on a standard action for the lever seating tools commonly used with falling blocks to get any purchase. I saw a rolling block shooter at a match I attended who couldn’t get his ammo to chamber fully. He was tapping in the shell (rim, hopefully) with a lead ingot using a small hammer. I told him to cut it out, and saw no more tapping, but the ingot stayed out on the lid of his shooting kit. I was sure relieved when he finished up. I guess the Fool Killer was on another assignment that day.

  11. #71
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    imho, the current crop of pedersoli rollers (and sharps) are really good, if not great guns. i can find no fault with them and i've had lots more than a few and currenty have one of each flavor in .45-70. there is no need for a seating tool on any roller or falling block single shot if the round is well made, but perhaps if the bullet needs to be set into the rifling and then maybe a chamber cartridge seater is a must have (but i dunno of any for a roller). a bugaboo that can happen is having a number of different rifles chambered for the same cartridge and mixing up the fire formed brass ... been there, done that, a dumb move for sure.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    I've never had many old guns that liked the same bullet and charge, even when they were the same caliber and brand of gun. It always seemed like slugging the bore ended up with different diameter bullets needed. Even on some that shot the same diameter bullet the charge needed varying to get optimum accuracy. Some would be close enough for plinking or hunting, but not close enough for serious target work.
    So I've always kept my ammo boxes marked for all the load data, plus which gun they would be used in.

  13. #73
    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
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    Time for a little update I guess.

    Seems I was innocently minding my own business trundling down the road to South Dakota to a gun dog breed club meeting one fine morning earlier this month. As it had been a bit of a drive already, I pulled off about half-way between Bozeman and Billings to walk the pup, reload the thermos and splash some more stuff in the tank. (Mind you, it wasn't the FIRST stop since leaving the Seattle area.)

    While the pump was rolling the counters up, I was looking at the signs on businesses and found myself wondering why the name of the town was making noises in my head like I should associate it with something... hmm.. "Big Timber... Big Timber... ?"

    Well, contrary to normal, I did win the memory game and was, after picking up a couple of big bags of M&Ms, shortly strolling through the door at Shiloh so I could put an eye on their display models. And got to put a good number of them to the shoulder and .. okay, I drooled like a 4 month old puppy for a milk bone.

    Oddly enough, I managed to pat a rack of 5 (five) stock '74s on the way by.. Okay, I got to get several of those in hand and drooled on all of them too.. But I *did* escape without buying one!!

    I did however, get myself a deposit on at '77. I was surprised how much weight they got out of the action with that change.

    So, I just have to finish up the 'fiddly bit' list in the next year and a half or so..

  14. #74
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Those 77's a pretty sweet. I've seen 4 of them at matches now, and they are shooting quite well... Impatiently waiting for my pay up or die letter on one.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  15. #75
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    They have a nice 32" heavy barreled 1874 in .45-70 on the rack right now. It says standard wood but it looks comparable to the semi-fancy stocked Shilohs that I have.

    Chris.

  16. #76
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    too late now, but the Hepburn is the ONLY one designed for Creedmore type matches, expressly. enjoy

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANick57 View Post
    Time for a little update I guess.



    Oddly enough, I managed to pat a rack of 5 (five) stock '74s on the way by.. Okay, I got to get several of those in hand and drooled on all of them too.. But I *did* escape without buying one!!

    I did however, get myself a deposit on at '77. I was surprised how much weight they got out of the action with that change.

    So, I just have to finish up the 'fiddly bit' list in the next year and a half or so..
    Congrats!!!
    I have to admit, you're not quite right!!! I grew up within 40 miles of where Shiloh is, fortunately they didn't open business in BT until I'd grown and moved on. I've stopped by a couple times when I went up to visit family, the first time I walked in I placed an order, the next time I bought one off the rack, I don't have the self control you do, if I stopped there again...
    Give it some thought, you're going past on your way home, can you really wait for the ordered one???

  18. #78
    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutinlead View Post
    Congrats!!!
    I have to admit, you're not quite right!!! I grew up within 40 miles of where Shiloh is, fortunately they didn't open business in BT until I'd grown and moved on. I've stopped by a couple times when I went up to visit family, the first time I walked in I placed an order, the next time I bought one off the rack, I don't have the self control you do, if I stopped there again...
    Give it some thought, you're going past on your way home, can you really wait for the ordered one???
    Ha!! On the way home it was late.. really late. About all I could do was look at the exit sign go by and give it a little wave and a grin. I'll be by there at least once before I ever get a letter. However, the interim plan is to locate a pre-loved bangstick to play with. The .45-70 pool has a fair number swimming around available. The '77... I'm thinking that one might wind up being a .40 but, it's early..

  19. #79
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    My Dad's had some hand and shoulder re-hab issues, so I've been the trigger puller for a number of load experiments he's had cooking on a number of his BPCR's.

    Since black powder is a velocity limiter, your key to really long range is more bullet mass. The result of course is that you'll want your .45's to be be heavy, and they do tend to thump you.

    The .40's seem to be about on par with modern bolt guns (i.e. .30-06) for recoil and may be "the answer" for realistic hunting distances of a couple hundred yards. With the right twist rate and bullet, they can be made to play for the long haul.

    For just plain pleasant to shoot, easy to load, and great accuracy, I think a fast-twist .38-55 is really hard to beat. Conventional wisdom seems to indicate it doesn't quite have the legs of the bigger bores, but not getting pounded while shooting at the distances most of us get to play at has real perks.
    WWJMBD?

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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Formal offhand target shooters (i.e. the immigrant German "Schuetzen" shooters) determined by 1900 that their best calibers fell between .28 and .33 - even the venerable .38-55 gave too much recoil to let a man shoot a score without excessive fatigue, unless he was built like Paul Bunyan. 'Course a score for those guys was 100 shots in a day at 200 yards. That game is still played today, but you might find something less demanding.

    The older I get the more I want to play and not blast myself with recoil. My current toy is a Taylor Arms Uberti high wall in .38-55. 21 grains of 4198 is ok by me.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check