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Thread: The Ideal 357 Magnum Self Defense Round?

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have given this topic a lot of thought over time. Since I don't know your circumstances or how good a shot you are, I can't give a recommendation. I can only tell you what I do and why.
    For home defense, I have a 12 gauge pump loaded with duck loads of steel BBs next to the bed. It seems to be a nice compromise between buckshot and light pellets. Nothing else to recommend that size other than my choice.
    I also have a 9mm loaded with 124 grain hollow points with an extra mag. The reason for this is, if the bad guy gets behind family member, I want something more precise than a shotgun. If the bad guy gives me an eyeball or more to shoot at across my house, that will be all I need. I am not a superb shot but at close range I am good enough. I don't worry about over penetration since the closest house is over 100 yards away.
    There are other handguns stashed in appropriate places in the house where I tend to spend time.
    For carry outside, I have a number of choices that range from an XD-E in 9mm to a S&W model 60 which I carry with 38 special 125 grain hollow points as well as a couple of larger size handguns. I use these because I can shoot them accurately and I shoot them often enough that I don't have to think about what to do to make them work.
    For carry when hunting, I have a 686 with a 6 inch barrel. It is usually loaded with 158 grain soft nose depending in part on where I am. The biggest threat where I go hunting are packs of dogs and coyotes. There is an occasional cougar around but you never see them.
    All my semi-auto pistols use the same manual of arms. I don't want to have to think about which pistol I am using that day. That is why I went with Taurus PT92 instead of a Beretta 92FS.
    I have a couple of 22 pistols for target shooting that work differently but they will never be used for defense.
    This is what I have chosen because of my circumstances. You will need to decide what works for you in your circumstances.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    You should call the FBI and offer your services as their ballistics expert. Tell them their testing protocols are flawed and worthless. Seriously, unless we revert to testing on goats, ballistic gelatin offers a unform testing medium along with the barrier tests. I think wet newspaper to be a good test medium, but who reads newspapers any more???
    Not sure where you came to the conclusion that I was any kind of expert in anything. The FBI standards may be flawed in some ways (no test isn't without it's flaws), but it's certainly a useful tool. Primarily in showing how much a specific round will penetrate compared to others. If a 357 load and a 9mm load both penetrate about the same in a uniform medium, then under similar circumstances in a human body, they should penetrate about the same amount. Of course there are always things that can happen as the human body is not uniform. Bones, organs, air space, ect, can effect a round. Of course at the point that you argue what if scenarios about how a round could hit the right spot and pass straight through, the tests stop meaning much. At that point, a 45 ACP and a 357 magnum are both likely to over penetrate.

    Wet newspaper is a great medium, but it's more or less a uniform one much like ballistic gelatin, only a lot more dense. As you said, short of testing the rounds on pigs or goats, we can only speculate about what the rounds will actually do.
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  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Based on cattle water trough tests of mine, I liked the Hornady Critical Defense the best.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    The Critical Defense stuff is good. I've carried in in my 1911 before, and it packs a punch. The gel tests looked great on it too. The only down side was that I can't find those bullets for sale. I have to buy loaded ammo, which can be an issue if you like to thoroughly test a round and practice with it. That stuff can be a bit pricey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Perfectly mushroomed bullets may sell ammunition but 40 years worth of empirical data derived from actual street shootings seems like a better yardstick to me. And, I've never been attacked by a block of gelatin. You are free to use whatever data you like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    You can be as flippant as you wish but back in the days of LE revolver and before the 1986 Miami Shootout that resulted in the creation of those FBI ballistic standards; actual results were the primary standard to evaluate a cartridge used for self-defense.
    While I don't think the FBI terminal ballistic standards are necessarily bad, I do think they should only be a part of the evaluation rather than the sole basis for evaluation.

    If someone is trying to do serious harm to you, I can assure you that stopping that person is far more important to you than producing beautifully consistent mushroomed bullets.
    Somewhere along the line ammunition manufactures realized that consumers have been conditioned to think that perfectly mushroomed spent projectiles are a sign of quality.
    Factors such as penetration, frontal area and weight retention ARE important but the only real test is - "does the bullet do enough damage to incapacitate the attacker before he/she harms me".
    Pictures of perfectly mushroomed bullets are A sign of potential performance but actual results are the other important half of that evaluation.

    I'm not going to go back and forth about this bullet or that bullet. Cartridge wars are pointless. I will stand by what I said earlier: back when revolvers were common in American law enforcement, departments than allowed the use of the .357 magnum saw excellent actual results from the 125 grain, JHP in .357 magnum.
    Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is bad or outdated.
    Absolutely. I never said or thought the FBI tests were be all end all of testing. I plan on doing a bit of testing myself. Short of testing the rounds on something living, any test will nothing more than an educated speculation about what will actually happen. I certainly don't plan on getting into enough gun fights to prove the effectiveness of these rounds. The Remington 125gr has quite the pedigree though. From what I understand, back in the day it was considered premium stuff, and still to this day performs well enough to be a serious contended for self defense ammo. Likewise, Speer Gold Dots are extremely well tested and proven rounds. So much so that many consider them an industry standard for good self defense ammo.

    As for being flippant, who? Me? I don't think I have been at any point, and I certainly never intended to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

    When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

    What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

    My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

    How'm I doin'?
    Well a shotgun won't fit in my pocket so I can't carry it with me.

    The whole rifle vs shotgun vs handgun argument is worth it's own debate. Where I live, I can use anything I want without worrying about over penetration. That said, I still choose a 1911 in 45 ACP over a long gun for the simple reason that it's faster and easier to maneuver. For my home, that is what I need.
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  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I've always held the opinion that a good self defense cartridge should be capable of hunting medium size game, or large if you are in grizzly territory. Deer are plentiful, and if you were going to hunt anyway, it's a good way to test out your bullets. 357 mag and 45 acp are plenty for whitetail, assuming you are are a good enough marksman.

    Lots of people will argue that wild animals are tougher than a person. I say no way, but that's beside the point. If you expect a bullet to IMMEDIATELY STOP a human being, who can get well over 300 pounds, why wouldn't you expect that bullet to also harvest a deer humanely? You only need the deer to die in a reasonable amount of time, yet you need to stop an attacker (animal or otherwise) in its tracks.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Actually the "fbi" tests are an excellent place to start & end for that matter.

    What 99+% of the people that type about the "fbi" testing don't get is there's actually 6 different tests with 4 of them dealing with some type of barrier/material that simulates real world issues/results. So when you see someone typing about the "fbi" testing with gel, they're doing real good because they got 16% of what they're talking about correct. Oddly enough awhile back I brought up testing concerns about shooting into cars. Several people on this website thought that type of testing was way over the top/extravagant and was not needed. Hate to say it but the fbi does 1 gel test and 2 tests for cars (that use barriers + gel). The metal part of the test carry's over to metal clad doors/thin metal barriers and the window test is just that, bullet vs window. And yes other things use/have glass besides cars.

    As usual there's the perfect eye candy mushroom thing in this thread. Why would sd ammo want/need a hp that mushrooms and retains it's weight??? A bigger wound channel/cavity comes to mind. The expanded/mushroomed bullets slows the bullet down. The weight retention ='s momentum so when a bullet stays intact it carries more momentum/has greater penetration.

    The 16 %er's talk about the gel test, great!!! Then that same ammo (if it passes the gel test) get tested with the drywall test. If that ammo doesn't pass the drywall test it isn't even considered for use.

    drywall test ='s:
    Two pieces of ˝ inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The gelatin
    block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical building
    interior wall. Just for the heck of it they put cloth on the gelatin block used in the drywall test. Tests 3-6 utilize light clothing (e.g. the cotton t-shirt and dress shirt materials above),
    in addition to the mentioned intermediate barrier.

    Sorta makes ya wonder when you see a post with the "fbi gel test" and "but the bullet goes thru drywall" in the same post. How about the "fbi" test wants the bullet to go thru drywall and the clothed gel block.

    125gr bullets were/are nothing more than a band aid/quick fix for the 357. HP/bullet design has come a long way since the adoption of the fbi/125gr combo. Bullets that pass "all" of the fbi tests costs $$$, Hornady has an excellent line of sd ammo that does pass all 6 tests.

    Myself, I carry a 586 l-comp when I carry a 357 with a 158gr cast lead hp/1200fps load. I don't want the hp to open/mushroom/stay intact. I cast that bullet hard enough so that the hp explodes/shatters with the 1200fps load.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Cool Expert Ballistician. ME...?

    NOPE! But, through the years of reloading, and reading " the experts": Marshall & Sanow, Ayoob, Harris, Skelton and others, several things have stuck in my mind.

    1. You shoot best what kicks and deafens you least. Few people can handle well the 125gr./1400+ fps 357 Magnum cartridges, or afford to practice regularly with them! So, a good "mild magnum, like Remington's oold SJWC load at ~1200 fps, current Golden Saber rounds, or C.E. Harris' recommendation of a "full Wadcutter" load, or even a .38 Spl +P load by one of the major manufacturers might be a better choice for most people.

    2. Shot placement is paramount! "You can't miss fast enough to win"...or survive!

    3. Overpenetration is a real fact. The first I even considered it a problem was watching an old Robert Blake movie "Electra
    Glide In Blue", or something similar to that. He either shot at and missed or had a complete penetration of a bad guy, and iirc, an old man in the slightly out-of-focus background was hit.Of course, it was only a movie! But, it did cause me to think!

    4. According to an article in Handloader magazine, Speer jacketed boolits must reach 850 fps or so for reliable expansion to take place, and probably other brands of ammunition/boolets will display similar characteristics.

    5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.

    6. It is terribly expen$ive to shoot with the premium, major manufacturer's ammunition. Experience shooting even the humble .22 Long rifle carries over to other areas of shooting! If you reload, try to duplicate the recoil and blast effects of carry ammunition, so it will not be a big surprise when you do shoot the real stuff. Then, practice/receive as much training as you can afford. Competition...IPSC or the like, Bowling Pin matches, etc, can provide experience, and if you are like me, raises the stress level significantly!

    Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them.
    Last edited by sniper; 07-16-2018 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #47
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    5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



    Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them. [/QUOTE]

    I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?
    kids that hunt and fish dont mug old ladies

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUCKYDAWG13 View Post
    5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



    Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them.
    I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?[/QUOTE]

    No, it has never been an issue in any court in the land. It is a total myth fabricated by Ayoub to give him something to write and speak about. It has been so thoroughly discredited over the years, that I am surprised it still comes up.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUCKYDAWG13 View Post
    5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



    Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them.
    I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?
    Nope, and considering the number of people who do it anyways like me and numerous others on this board, I would say that if it was an actual issue, we would have seen cases about it by now. That argument MIGHT hold some water in California where common sense ain't so common, but not in Texas, Oklahoma, or probably most other states.
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  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    You know, the worst part of all this discussion is that if we consider a 3" Charter Arms .44 special loaded with either a 240 SWC or a 200 WC boolit at about 825 fps we don't have to worry about if the projectile will expand at all. Then there's the Charter .45 acp Pitbull loaded with a 200-225 grain RNFP or SWC with only a little more size and recoil. Don't get me wrong, I have more S&W .357s than anyone needs, but I ought to just carry the 3" Charter .44 and not be concerned about the recoil and muzzle blast. It sure does keep threads like this active, though, and gets the blood moving. GF

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Nobody has listed Liberty civil defense. I use them mixed with my cast loads in my 9 and 380. They are both 50 grain deep hollow points that break off into 5 parts. 4 from the tip spread and the one from the base penetrates. The 9 has a muzzle velocity of 2,000 FPS.
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism—by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Fox View Post
    You know, the worst part of all this discussion is that if we consider a 3" Charter Arms .44 special loaded with either a 240 SWC or a 200 WC boolit at about 825 fps we don't have to worry about if the projectile will expand at all. Then there's the Charter .45 acp Pitbull loaded with a 200-225 grain RNFP or SWC with only a little more size and recoil. Don't get me wrong, I have more S&W .357s than anyone needs, but I ought to just carry the 3" Charter .44 and not be concerned about the recoil and muzzle blast. It sure does keep threads like this active, though, and gets the blood moving. GF
    You might have something with the full wadcutter, but a non-expanding 44 caliber is still not a very big hole in my experience. I've only seen a few deer shot with hard cast, and it was not impressive. It depends, but a meplat on a 44 SWC is somewhere in the ballpark of .280" maybe a bit bigger for some. Any hollow point 357 mag that opens up is going to be way over that. I prefer soft points which still expand to well over .280". I like a soft SWC, it just kind of rivets into a full wadcutter, or a little bigger, while still loading quicker.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjim View Post
    Nobody has listed Liberty civil defense. I use them mixed with my cast loads in my 9 and 380. They are both 50 grain deep hollow points that break off into 5 parts. 4 from the tip spread and the one from the base penetrates. The 9 has a muzzle velocity of 2,000 FPS.
    +1 ^^^^

    Hence the nose of the hp that frags/same affect. There's a +/- 125gr body of the bullet left that's nothing more than a 125gr wc that keeps going. The lighter 125gr wc looses momentum fast but is still effective. Testing in clothed wetpack resulted in a entry hole, a couple of inches of permanent wound channel the size of a quarter with spreading trails & the wc/body ended up at +/- 7 1/2" of penetration.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master Groo's Avatar
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    Groo here
    The first thing is : What do you want to do? To stop a deer requires you to hit bone to stop a person requires you to make him/her to give up..........
    This could take a pin in the thumb, or a 12ga to the chest.
    Most all bullets are built to the FBI spec and perform the same. In my mind,poorly.
    You need to make "pain" [Keith said SLAP or reaction to the shot] this means damage the most nerves.
    Modern bullets are made to cause bleeding[takes up to 2 min to work] and are just backwards.
    We should damage skin first make much pain, then drive in to cause bleeding.
    Larger bullets [ the larger the flat nose the better] do this ,or high speed lighter bullets [like 357 125gr with a large amount of lead out side the jacket] that start to deform on the surface.
    This is where the auto is at a disadvantage.
    The HP must go from the mag ,hit the feed ramp, slide up that, hit the top of the chamber and rattle onto the chamber.
    The revolver need only resist handling and dropped into the chamber.
    So the revolver CAN always be made to deform quicker.
    If you can't shoot a load with an impact speed of 900 to 1000fps [to insure deformation] get the largest flat nose you can find.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I don't know where some people get their info on Semi-Auto pistol reliability. My experience with the 1911 has been pretty darned good, once they are set up right. If you feed it bad ammo (overcharges, undercharges, or wadcutter boolits) it won't be as reliable and you'll get stovepipes or (in the case of overcharges) the magazine blown out the bottom of the gun - So don't DO any of those. Other than those I get maybe 3 FTF's in 10k rounds? (Family member gave me some of their ammo, without telling me, and friend borrowed it to use up his handloads, sigh.) And I'm counting the 45ACP shotshells I've fired here. I've had revolvers be about as reliable (but then I shoot some low powered loads in them and have primers back out, not that hard to fix those, tho annoying as it's harder than fixing a semi auto FTF.) I've been listening since 1965 for any court case against anyone loading handloads, never heard of one; If you loaded something like a shot capsule with the shot soaked in cyanide, or Ricin, or other toxins, I can see how you COULD / WOULD get in trouble, but if you just load cast hardball RN or TC 230 grain at a reasonable pressure, that's not going to go badly I'd think. Or even a J-word HP bullet. Unless you run it at 50k PSI or something, and THEN its going to be Murphy kicking you in the face! Let's stay with the truth about Semi-Autos, please, they're dang reliable, if you do your part.

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy maglvr's Avatar
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    Full wadcutter, 160gr or more @ 1000fps, game over!
    The .357 Magnum......
    1935
    Major Douglas Wesson, using factory loads, which were a 158 gr. soft lead bullet, traveling 1515 fps, from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W, producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy.
    Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
    Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
    Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
    Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot).

    It kind of makes one wonder, why today, it will bounce off anything bigger than a rabbit

  17. #57
    Boolit Master

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    Agreed. The handgun is inferior to a long gun in most people’s hands.

    For indoors at home the venerable shotgun is probably handier. You will like blast your own ears with any gun indoors. After the shotgun the old days the M1 carbine was recommended because it was very handy sized and sufficient. Loaded with Remington soft points. Still going to over penetrate. The evil black AR 15 or more political acceptable mini 14 with frangibles like typical ballistic tip types will actually be less of a secondary over penetrator. It will come apart in the illegal agressor, it will break up while going through a full dry wall interior or exterior wall. The fragment are a lower threat and will lose momentum much faster takin to the B.B. shotgun load previously brought up. Which people may laugh at the steel B.B. goose load for defense. Those BBs will zip through a coyote and are no joke. In close on a two legged coyote and I would hazard you are not saving the pelt on that one. An ER doctor also would have his hands full if that hit the vermin while in close in a tight pattern. Not enough healthy cohesive tissue to stitch back together if it was a close shot.

    All of these arguments in the thread are a fine discussion but you will have a hard time predicting the tragic scenario you might encounter. You may be home, you may be in the store, you may be fully or half in your vehicle while approached, you may be on the river bank fishing or deep in the woods. Heck it might be a man or it might be a moose with a calf trying to stomp you or a mountain lion sizing you up for dinner.


    ETA to back up to the OP’s question I do not carry my .357s much at the moment but I do lean to a jacketed 158. I know it’s not perfect but it is sufficient. I do have some hornady critical defense that came with the colt python deal of the century but I probably wouldn’t re buy them. I shy away from the 125s due to the old issue in k frames and cracking cones. The internet whizdom says it’s the short shank that isn’t supported from the throat into the forcing cone and gets tilted then violently straightened. The 158s bridge the gap making a better transition so I go with that.

    No one argument we have discussed will fit every scenario. Somebody mentioned freedom before and that’s appropriate, we have the freedom to take stock of our own little world and what information we have like we kicked around here and make our best guess for carry for us. Yay freedom.
    Last edited by Lance Boyle; 07-22-2018 at 09:39 AM.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by am44mag View Post
    I know I'm going to get a ton of different answers here, but what do you think it the ideal 357 mag self defense round? A lot of people seem to prefer 125gr HPs, some prefer 158 HPs, others say there penetrate too much. Some are fine with 158gr SWCs, but again, people think over penetration will be an issue.

    I'm kind of leaning towards a 125gr Gold Dot HP at about 1400-1500 FPS.
    Self defense against what?

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I'd think with the current political situation, sadly, it's 2-legged wolves mostly, with occasional ticked off deer or black bear thrown in just to muddy the situation.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    If I had to carry a 357 for self defense it would be a 4" sixgun using a 125 JHP at 1200 FPS.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check