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Thread: Paper patching and Forensic Ballistics

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    If I were to do it I might spend the extra buck for money paper .
    The ideal of course is for all of the evidence that has to or might be dropped or lost at the scene or anywhere near it or connected to you to be so impossibly generic that it could be as easily connected to any 5-6 or 50 others . If you're old or ill enough going in or when you confess your deeds even if you're convicted it might be a life quality enhancement .

    As far as a list of better off in a world without them in it , it's a short list . Really there probably enough other people the appreciate those on my as much as I do to get a person off on a justifiable . An investigation would bring out all of the dirt I suspect , just to find a motive . By that time I think the average CSI , beat cop , and judge would wonder how they lived so long without going to jail . In my case mostly it wouldn't be jail time but probably restitution with a pain and suffering addendum and I never see a dime anyway .

    Fear of incarceration is what separates us that visualize and and remove minutia details from the deed in our minds from those that will/have done the deeds . I know that those on my list will one day meet they're return on life investment and when they do I'll just smile knowingly and have a celebratory dinner for about a week .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    I could think of a hundred different ways to do it and 1,000 more ways that I would get caught lol. I have always found it funny why people that calculate murder with a gun just never buy the parts that would leave evidence at a gun show with cash, install, use and then destroy them with a torch, bleach bath or other means. GI 1911 barrels, slides and firing pins are a dime a dozen.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I could never cold bloodedly kill a man as in premeditated murder so I have difficulty even contemplating how I might do it. Self defence - Now that's different kettle of fish. I was prepared to kill more than once when I thought my life was being threatened and indeed, I was once expecting to be attacked and killed once (but nothing happened). No thought of paper patching to prevent linking it to me. I would have been dead next to the dudes I had just killed! Or tried to (it was a mob). I was probably in less danger than what I had imagined.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Having been both a forensic firearms witness and a homicide investigator for a long time, most of what is posted above is pretty good info. In homicide cases--which are thoroughly and vigorously defended--a prosecutor better have a whole lot more than ballistic impressions tying the arrestee to the commission of the course of conduct. The poster who stated that physical evidence is more often used to exclude persons than to accuse persons is right on the money. This includes the polygraph--which saves untold thousands of taxpayer dollars every month by separating the wheat from the chaff fairly efficiently. No single factor "makes' or "breaks" a case. DNA evidence comes close to being a "Deus ex machina", but your core investigation still must place this powerful evidence in its proper context--the old balancing act of "Probative vs. Prejudicial". "Proof Beyond Reasonable Doubt" is a tall standard--you better have your act wired tight if you plan to charge someone. And DO NOT beiieve for a second that using a paper-patched bullet or a sabot round will insulate you from culpability. One person might be a really smart cookie, smarter than the officer assigned to a given case. Not too many crooks can out-think a bureau of detectives, 10-15 strong with between 200-300 years' collective experience. It is not a good bet.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    I wonder if any homicides were committed with paper patched bullets?
    Just a thought from a sleepless night.
    Quigley shot paper patched bullets.

    I always figured leaving fake forensic evidence could point the finger in so many directions your defense could get you off on reasonable doubt.

    Use a revolver but scatter range pickup semi auto brass at the scene. Use ammo that couldn't be traced to you, say a partial box from a garage sale of a brand you never bought and deep six the left overs. Deliberately abrade the bore and breach face so any comparison would look obviously different.

    A good defense lawyer will have his own experts who will have plenty of other evidence to draw different conclusions which will raise doubt in the jurors mind.
    Blacksmith

    S. G. G. = Sons of the Greatest Generation. Too old to run, too proud to hide; we will stand our ground and take as many as we can with us!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    When Col. E.H. Harrison at the NRA was doing his paper patched bullet experiments, we took samples over to the FBI lab and fired a bunch under different conditions. Shreds of the paper can be distinctly identified, as can powder residues on the paper and xrf analysis of the bullet alloy. The bullet will not have specific tool marks to identify a specific firearm, but does yield general rifling characteristic to help identify caliber and type. There was a paper published in the AFTE Journal back in the 1970s if your lab keeps back issues.
    The ENEMY is listening.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    When Col. E.H. Harrison at the NRA was doing his paper patched bullet experiments, we took samples over to the FBI lab and fired a bunch under different conditions. Shreds of the paper can be distinctly identified, as can powder residues on the paper and xrf analysis of the bullet alloy. The bullet will not have specific tool marks to identify a specific firearm, but does yield general rifling characteristic to help identify caliber and type. There was a paper published in the AFTE Journal back in the 1970s if your lab keeps back issues.
    Ding ding ding... bingo

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  8. #28
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    A sabot would be better isolation from the lands and groves.

    I remember reading a book as a kid where someone used an “ice” bullet that left nothing.

    Lots of people have died from a round ball fired from a smooth bore.

    A few of these would forever change the “finger print” of a bore from before/after firing them.
    http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits

    A Plasma cutter or oxy/act torch can turn a barrel into tiny particles of slag in no time.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master





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    Quote Originally Posted by John McCorkle View Post
    If a person was of interest there would be tons of other forensic evidence they could reference. If it were a cast paper patching bullet they could reference metals of what the bullet was made of and other cast bullets (or even uncast ingots) to see if the composition was the same. It would take a significant lab to run those tests and of course all this is hypothetical...but your alloys are just as much of a finger print as your rifling.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
    Lead comparisons of the alloy got the FBI into serious problems when the courts over turned them for cause of not a real science around 10 years ago. Many cases got reversed by it.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    Lead comparisons of the alloy got the FBI into serious problems when the courts over turned them for cause of not a real science around 10 years ago. Many cases got reversed by it.
    This wasn't because the science was "bad" but because the lead industry produced large 100-ton heat lots which were commonly sold to multiple users, such that a batch of lead in any particular lot of ammunition wasn't "unique to the exclusion of all others". XRF and NAA are simply tools in the tool box which must be evaluated in the context of surrounding other evidence, residues and toolmarks, for example.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy AllanD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McCorkle View Post
    If a person was of interest there would be tons of other forensic evidence they could reference. If it were a cast paper patching bullet they could reference metals of what the bullet was made of and other cast bullets (or even uncast ingots) to see if the composition was the same. It would take a significant lab to run those tests and of course all this is hypothetical...but your alloys are just as much of a finger print as your rifling.

    Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
    The problem with this is Just the alloy's exact composition is not "to a scientific certainty" by simple "Assay" or XRF or other quick tests, for REAL scientific certainty, you need to precisely measure both trace elements as well as the isotopic components of them...
    and that is EXPEN$IVE testing.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy UKShootist's Avatar
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    Too much fuss. Just use poison or a car to run your victim over.
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    Well geeze, it seems we have quite a few criminal masterminds on this forum.
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  14. #34
    Boolit Master





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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Coot View Post

    By the way the .....22 sabot for 30cal cartridges was dropped because they were horribly inaccurate. Brodie
    Ah still being made AND sold.
    http://www.eabco.com/remington-accelerator-sabots.html

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT Farmer View Post
    I was involved in compiling evidence and investigating exactly one murder in 34 years, two rounds of 40 to the back of the head. The case was solved the old fashion way. The perp was drinking in a local bar and started bragging about it.
    I was involved in a whole lot more homicide cases over a number of years. It always amazed me just how much perps wanted to "Sign their handiwork", and it amazed them just how often people would get up in court and swear under oath to having heard what the perp said, to include details only known to investigators or those present at the occurrence. The "Mr. Churchill" mentioned above made good points about how using a firearm is not wise practice if concealing your guilt was part of the motive.

    Yes--forensics has the ability to tie crime objects to crime perpetrators. This ability (or lack thereof) varies from case to case. Frankly--if you hinge your case on some forensics findings other than DNA matches, your case is at best incomplete. The forensics must be weaved into the subtleties and nuances of each course of conduct of any involved parties, or juries 'hang up' a la O.J. Simpson. It isn't what you believe--it isn't what you 'know'--it IS about what you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And DNA is well-nigh unassailable if chain of custody is kept strictly controlled and handling standards are adhered to.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    gallium or chilled mercury!

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy
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    I suppose that anybody who has read or watched murder mysteries has pondered the hows, wheres and whens of ending another's life.
    Human nature to some extent.
    But, humans being so similar to each other, my bet is that you are rarely the ONLY person contemplating the demise of a particular individual.
    As I grow older, my theoretical 'short list' just seems to somehow of take care of itself and age instructs you to be more wary about your associations moving forward.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check