British martini 577-450 carbine

[Frank46]

OK, guys need some help here. Just received a British dated 1875 martini carbine in 577-450 caliber. Bbl exterior is pretty well rusted with some deep pitting does have both military and front sights. The rear sight is missing the slide retention screw but no biggie. I'm really seriously considering getting it rebarreled to another caliber. 50-70 came to mind as I have 110 starline cases and could be used with either with smokeless or BP. Breech block and the firing pin are in excellent condition as no pitting or corrosion on the face of the block and firing pin can be made hemispherical. The 50-70 is not engraved in stone. I didn't get the forend but did get the barrel bands. So let's us put on our thinking caps and see what you come up with. Planned barrel length will be 22"" in keep with the spirit of the carbine.
And does anyone have any pics as to how the handguard itself is attached to the rifle?, would need pics of any hangers or such. I have a old barrel blank with a 1x14 twist if thats any help. 38-55 brass I have. Thanks,Frank

[elk hunter]

50-70 would be an excellent choice as would 45-70 or even 38-55. I put a 405 Winchester barrel on a Martini rifle action for a friend a few years ago, he said it has a bit of recoil. I never saw how the forearm attached as all he brought was the action and the barrel blank. You could dovetail a lug under the barrel and use a screw to hold the forearm on.

[Mk42gunner]

.577 Snider? No extractor work that way.

Robert

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've just rebuilt a Mk1 with a new Walther barrel in 577 Snider. Still sorting out sights etc but with a 615gn bullet and 92gns FFG it's grouping reasonably well on target at 100yds considering I had to aim about 1 ft below the bull

[herbert buckland]

OK, guys need some help here. Just received a British dated 1875 martini carbine in 577-450 caliber. Bbl exterior is pretty well rusted with some deep pitting does have both military and front sights. The rear sight is missing the slide retention screw but no biggie. I'm really seriously considering getting it rebarreled to another caliber. 50-70 came to mind as I have 110 starline cases and could be used with either with smokeless or BP. Breech block and the firing pin are in excellent condition as no pitting or corrosion on the face of the block and firing pin can be made hemispherical. The 50-70 is not engraved in stone. I didn't get the forend but did get the barrel bands. So let's us put on our thinking caps and see what you come up with. Planned barrel length will be 22"" in keep with the spirit of the carbine.
And does anyone have any pics as to how the handguard itself is attached to the rifle?, would need pics of any hangers or such. I have a old barrel blank with a 1x14 twist if thats any help. 38-55 brass I have. Thanks,Frank

I would check that date on the action ,there are no British Martini Henry 577-450 carbines made as early as 1875 and all military carbines will be marked 1C1 on the right and side of the action,conversion marks to 303 will be on the left side of the frame,there are comercial carbines made but these will not be dated,there are also a couple of experimeta early carbines made by other than British makers but are exreamly rare.If it is indeed a carbine the for-stock is atached by a hook screwed to the rear of the for-stock and hooks to the action,if it is a cutt down 1875 rifle the fore stock will be fixed with a pin that goes through a lug that hangs from under the back end of the barrel.Photos would clear up what you have and would give a idear weather it is worth rebarelling,some of these rifles were put together by tribal gunsmiths with questamble metal and tolerances

[Frank46]

Herbert, it is as far as I know a carbine. Will post the markings on the receiver tomorrow. Does have war department markings and also the sold out of service markings with the two arrows pointing at each other. Also has a capital S followed by a dash then an X followed by a period stamped on the top of the receiver ring. Not disagreeing with you here. Two possibilities exist. Cut down rifle with short cocking lever, or someone fitted a carbine barrel to this action. Has both rear and front sights attached.

BAW, thanks but no thanks regarding the 577 snider or your super snider round. Any firearm that draws blood when fired and leaves the shooter leaking the red stuff isn't for me. Frank

[Frank46]

As promised here are the markings on the martini receiver
Crown or cypher
V.R
ENFIELD
1875
Small Crown with arrow directly underneath arrow pointing down
Roman numeral II
And a regular 2 below the roman numeral.

Frank

[herbert buckland]

You may have a Martini-Henry Carbine,Artillery,Mark II,these were conversions of MH Mk II rifles starting in 1892,some quick things to look for in identifiying this conversion is butt wil be fitted with a ID disk and Swivel,carbine back sight,the original fore-stock and barrel were modified to pattern for this conversion,also this model had a new specily made cleaning rod.Hope this helps

[Frank46]

Will dig it up and post more info tomorrow. Does have a stock disc, no forend but did come with two barrel bands and one does have the sling swivel. Frank

[herbert buckland]

How bad is the bore,if it is OK this may be a case of better of restoring to original,new for-stocks are avalible and with a little modification will fit,you will also need a nose cap but these too are available,the hard one will be the cleaning rod,can you post pictures so I can confirm it is a MH AC Mk II all the descriptions so far seem to point to this

[dromia]

If the bore is usable then I would look at restoration as has already been suggested, shame to destroy a increasingly hard to find example.

If it is a write off then 500/450 No2 Musket is a fine BP cartridge, 45 calibre and an efficient BP case.

[Frank46]

Ok, the trigger guard has the hole in the front of it for a sling swivel. The outside of the barrel by the breech end has extensive deep pitting and also pitting also on the underside of the barrel. Bore looks decent but when running a bore brush down it you can feel roughness for about the last 8 inches or so. Trying to find one of those bore inspection things I have so can better check the chamber and throat. Buttstock does not have any provisions for any sling swivels. Frank

[herbert buckland]

If it was a Mk II AC there should be a hole for a sling swivel a couple of inches from the heal of the but plate,these were somtimes pluged after sold out of service,the hole in the trigger guard for the sling swivel is in all military MHs reguadless of model,swivals just were not fitted to some modles,the bras roundel in the butt is the give away for this rifle as only the Mk II and Mk III 577-450 artillery carbines were fitted with these,of cause it could be a replacment stock off a 303 Martini conversion,but only the 303 cavalry conversions did not have the sling swivel in the but-stock

[Frank46]

The brass disc is marked as follows.
5.94
4-w-y
315

The buttstock has been sanded but no plugs or fillers have been installed to cover up any inlets for the sling swivel assembly. tried very gently to remove the disc to see if there was any info on the reverse side but it is in so tight didn't want to cause any damage. Sometimes doing nothing is better in this case. Still patiently scrubbing the barrel and still getting black patches. Frank

[herbert buckland]

The brass disk is only a ID marker and may or may not be original to the rifle,the dating is right but the lack of a hole for butt swival sugests the stock is of a 303 Martin cavelery carbine.Without pictures the is not a lot more I can tell you except I agree the No 2 Musket cartridge is probley the best BP cartridge made and would be ideal if you are to rebarrel,but to me your barrel would clean up well with a little fire-laping and with a replacment and modified for-stock you would be good to go

[Frank46]

Herbert, many thanks for all the information it is greatly appreciated. Won't be in a hurry planning what to do with the carbine. Story of my life. Champagne taste and a beer pocketbook. Thanks again. Frank

[Buckshot]

..............Well you already have the Martini action, complete. And apparently a buttstock in good shape. Re-barreling it to another cartridge would be an option, but since you're not in any hurry maybe you could find a replacement barrel in 577-450? ANYONE can have a 45-70 but no so many can finagle a 577-450 I have a MkIV long lever Martini in that chambering. An old buddy of mine had come up with a nice Greener action, complete but no wood. After getting the action he began casting about trying to find a barrel for it. It's a long story but he managed to come up with an old 577-450 sporter barrel for $125. A few years went by. He'd bought the wood for it and had it basically fitted but not attached, and then lost interest in it. He sold it to me for $200. Heck, I already have dies and brass!

He said the barrel was sold to him as having been made by Westly Richards but among the myriad marks and stamps on it there isn't anything I recognized as indicating that maker.



The barrel profile is pear shaped (in cross section) for about 4" but with a flat on top, and is marked for the cartridge. At the end of the flat is the rear sight. It goes to an indicated 800 yards. Okay, you bet. Nothing like some plunging fire into a herd of Wildebeast.



The barrel is fairly heavy walled and is in very fine shape inside and out. You cannot tell from the photo but it has buttress, or also known as ratchet rifling. Has 7 lands and grooves.



This the wood he'd bought. I had to attach the forend. The barrel had a boss originally dovetailed into the underside for a screw to hold the forend. I used a 9/16" endmill to plunge into the wood so I could make an escutcheon and then made the screw. A 1/4-28 would almost bottom in the boss but wasn't quite right (that communistic metric stuff again), seemingly a trifle small in OD and the thread not just right. I swapped stud gears on the lathe (to give the QC box more options) and cut a 27 tpi pitch a bit over 1/4". The 27 tpi worked a champ and I forget now what the final OD was. Something like .256" or so. Trying it a couple times and putting the stock back in the lathe to pick the thread up again was a pain. I fire blued them both and it came out very nice.



I have no idea what this barrel had been on before, but it was probably a Martini as the breechface was cut for the martini extractor, but the threaded shank was about a thread to long to clock correctly. I had to make a spacer (not yet profiled in the left photo). In the right photo it has been finished and in place.



This is about the best photo of the entire rifle I have. Right photo is a .472", 505gr slug (group buy from the British Militaria board) and it is seated so the lands just touch the front band. About a .500" long throat. Just about right for a blunter flat nosed slug. I wrapped some scotch tape around a Lee C-458-500-F (a blunt FN design) so it would be a snug fit in the cases' mouth. Upon chambering and extracting it's OAL was just about exactly the same as the GB slugs' first drive band. Over 47.0 grs of surplus 4895 (dacron) that 505gr slug printed 5 rounds into 1.75", with 4 into an inch. I started at 44 grs, and each grain increase produced a tighter group. I forget the velocity now. It was a couple years ago and I haven't had it out since. Not that I haven't WANTED to.

...............Buckshot

[Cosmiceyes]

My 2 cents is I know I like them.Reading what you are doing with them is educational sometimes.Other times I get lost due to my ignorance.Thanks for the pictures.I shot one once.It was my teacher at Colorado School of Trades who was a Olympic trap shooter coach too.His was a single shot 12 gauge.Maybe one day in a trade or buy I might find another!

[Frank46]

Buckshot, Thanks for posting the pics of your sporter 577/450. I had a Nepal marked long lever martini. These were imported years ago. Long before the IMA & Alanta cutlery ones. Course cases and dies even back then cost more than the rifle. But as things sometime happen someone made an offer I couldn't refuse. So the whole kit went to the new owner. Nuts. Frank

[superc]

I see no read to re barrel or re chamber based on the description furnished. I concur you seem to have a MK II artillery carbine with the S-X conversion (a MK III extractor was fitted into the MK II action). They were mostly used in the Boer War and the proper bayonet is a sawtooth backed one used by the artillery men as a saw for cutting brush and logs. If the barrel is original somewhere around the chamber you should find some BSA inspector stamps (they did the conversions of MK II rifles into carbines for the military) and a date stamp. Usually 90 or 91. Many of these have pitting below or along side the stock wood line. Between 1906 (when they were surplussed) and now very few owners bothered to take the forestock off when cleaning the gun. Moisture gets in the wood and sits along the underside of the barrel. Unsightly, yes. However remove the rust and check the pits. If it is cosmetic damage only, cold blue and forget about it. No one will see what is under the stock but you. The MK II forestock is held on only by a cross pin. This often causes the wood to split after about 50 rounds behind the pin as the BSA carbine conversion usually did not include the steel barrel lug reinforcement found in the Enfield rifle forestock. I have no doubt that is why your gun is missing it's forestock. You can purchase both a new rifle stock and (often) a new rear sight from IMA. I have been where you are.

Pictured is the Enfield type steel insert to reinforce the barrel stock lug and reduce wood splits from cross pin vibration under recoil. It is a good system. Sadly BSA didn't copy it. No doubt this saved some pennies when bidding on the contract and had a lot to do with the carbines being retired in 1906 while the rifles served on as a reserve and rear guard weapon well into WW2 in India.

I made a new forestock for my own MK II Artillery Carbine. Here is a video of the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmz7iilpO_M

Also pictured is my carbine with the new stock. Back then I had not known of the Enfield recoil plate insert, so as the video shows I made my own equivalent and glass bedded it. Using a paper patched .43 Spanish bullet seated backwards over 85 gr of FFF and a shotgun 209 primer the gun took a nice buck deer last season.