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Thread: Justified Suicide Yes/No/Depends?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Justified Suicide Yes/No/Depends?

    Is there ever a time when assisted death is permissible by God, and not murder? Do you believe everyone who commits suicide is hell bound no matter the circumstances? I'm interested to hear others theology on this matter.

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    Boolit Master
    JSnover's Avatar
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    I don't know if I'd assist a suicide, I guess that would depend on the circumstances. I like to think If I stand before God I'll be able to tell Him that I was wrong often enough, but I tried to do what I thought was best.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Define "Assisted suicide".
    Currently there are a lot of folks who have signed DNRs, and then went home on Hospice. At that point, the caregivers are just charged with keeping them comfortable. Part of that comfort is pain reduction through opiods, which when given in more and more frequent doses, causes the body to slowly shut down - thereby allowing them to "go in their sleep".
    I've seen the same in the Hospital.
    Is this assisted suicide, or is it just keeping them comfortable?

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    Boolit Master

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    The idea that committing suicide will make you go to hell is not biblical. Considering that some people live with pain, depression and other problems I have never experienced, I try not to be too judgemental about those who have taken this option. I know at least one person of faith who did this. I believe suicide to be a sin in most cases; a forgivable one.

    I would not assist someone in suicide. I don't need the resulting problems.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The notion that suicide is "self murder" and a mortal sin finds it roots in Roman Catholic theology. I don't share those understandings. It has fallen my lot to officiate at the funerals of a dozen or more suicides. Those folks just ran out coping skills and life loaded their plates with more than they could carry.

    That said, suicide is very traumatic for the family and friends, often traumatizing them for life. Suicide is a very bad idea, if there are people you love. They will not understand and feel that somehow they failed you. It is a very, very bad scene!
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I was raised as a Catholic, but I'm not what I'd call religious now. But, it's a fact that suicide is the only sin you cannot confess.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The idea that committing suicide will make you go to hell is not biblical. Considering that some people live with pain, depression and other problems I have never experienced, I try not to be too judgemental about those who have taken this option. I know at least one person of faith who did this. I believe suicide to be a sin in most cases; a forgivable one.

    I would not assist someone in suicide. I don't need the resulting problems.
    Completely agree.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same......." - Ronald Reagan

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    Boolit Master glockfan's Avatar
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    let's realise that assisted suicide is another progressive trick to be able TO NOT provide care to people with cancer or other cronic illness.

    when they tell you that instead of suffering, they can provide some solution easy peasy!! think a little how it will goes at one point.

    let's say you have cancer. you get chemio,radiotherapy......at one point, they might face you and tell you:'''' well, there's nothing else doable....your choice!!!'''''.

    what i think is it's another way to get rid of sick people without having to spend a cent on them, and in some years from now, they will simply put this solution on the table right there to begin with....!!!

    i'm not saying that people with painfull illness shouldn't have the choice. i'm saying that this is gonna turn out as the easy solution to not provide all the possible cares,meds,treatments that the system would otherwise be obligated to.

    it's easy to tell someone: '''''we can do nothing more,you suffer,or you get the needle...'''.

    over time,this is how the society will get rid of the people in need....sound like a conspiracy?

    no.it's not.

    look at holland!! anyone who hit 65 and is in good health have the right to ask euthanasia....you feel alone,with no positive expectations in life? easy.mercy killing!!

    as for suicide being an unforgivable sin.no.it's not. why would it be? your body is only a vehicule to your spirit, your soul. you may elect to change vehicule because you find no joy in this world,because the circumstances of your life isn't at all what you wished for your yourself. it's a personal decision.in hope it's been well thought ,in hope it is not a spontaneous -impulsive act of the moment.

    this is only my opinion on a very disturbing act unfortunately done impulsively most of the time.
    Last edited by glockfan; 07-06-2018 at 11:18 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Then there is the choice my sister had to make.

    Dad was essentially blind, frail, 93, did pretty much nothing but yell at mom all day.

    Then he started attacking his caregivers. He was moved 120 miles away to a facility that could handle patients like him. Doc called my sister and asked her what she wanted to do.

    Option A leave him as is, seperated from his wife and wait.

    Option B Try to rebalance his meds and add a couple of mood stabilizers.
    Which might get him and mom back together. But when tend to be heart and liver killers in older people.

    She went with option B. Which might be another way of saying assisted suicide. Tough choice no matter what happens.

    The good news is Mom and Dad were reunited for 36 hours before he died.

    I sometimes think that people forget how to "let go" when the time comes to move on.

    I KNOW I influenced my mother. Some 4 years before she died she said something to the effect of "I don't know why we are still here?"

    I leaned forward, took her hands. When the time comes mom, just stop drinking and eating. Just stop.
    Don't let them put any tubes in. 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks to 3 months without food. Just stop.

    And last January she did, and in 5 days she was gone to be with her Johnny and the Lord.

    Miss you

    Was it ethical what I said?
    Would it be unethical to help if they were unable?

    I'm sure I'm going to find out the day I meet my maker.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Then there is the choice my sister had to make.

    Dad was essentially blind, frail, 93, did pretty much nothing but yell at mom all day.

    Then he started attacking his caregivers. He was moved 120 miles away to a facility that could handle patients like him. Doc called my sister and asked her what she wanted to do.

    Option A leave him as is, seperated from his wife and wait.

    Option B Try to rebalance his meds and add a couple of mood stabilizers.
    Which might get him and mom back together. But when tend to be heart and liver killers in older people.

    She went with option B. Which might be another way of saying assisted suicide. Tough choice no matter what happens.

    The good news is Mom and Dad were reunited for 36 hours before he died.

    I sometimes think that people forget how to "let go" when the time comes to move on.

    I KNOW I influenced my mother. Some 4 years before she died she said something to the effect of "I don't know why we are still here?"

    I leaned forward, took her hands. When the time comes mom, just stop drinking and eating. Just stop.
    Don't let them put any tubes in. 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks to 3 months without food. Just stop.

    And last January she did, and in 5 days she was gone to be with her Johnny and the Lord.

    Miss you

    Was it ethical what I said?
    Would it be unethical to help if they were unable?

    I'm sure I'm going to find out the day I meet my maker.
    I have been asked by families what they should do in cases similar to your father. My advice has always been, when medical care does not prolong living, but only prolongs dying, it is time to let nature take it's course.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    As far as agressively comitting the act, ain't gonna happen. It is my conviction that life is a gift from God and each of us is put here for a purpose. It is not up to us to decide when that purpose has been fulfilled and to end our journey here. I "think" I understand how life's stresses, or ailments and /or pain can cause a person to want to find and end to the problems. Personally I have some troubles and physical pain that the quacks can't seem to help but my life is too blessed otherwise to consider any other options. Others may feel otherwise but I'm not wise enough to help them. I will say that my son and daughter understand that when my body starts shutting down as it naturally will, don't keep me going with machines. I ain't skeered to meet my Maker so when it's time let me go. GW
    "If you can walk with crowds and keep your virtue,
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    And, which is more, you'll be a man my son!" R. Kipling

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    Boolit Master UKShootist's Avatar
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    Not entirely on topic, but in the UK for a great many years, attempting suicide was a crime. Not only that, but it was a capital crime. Someone found guilty of attempting suicide would be nursed back to health and then hanged.
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Very interesting commentary here. I really wasn't asking about end of life from disease or aging processes. The comment about when a treatment is prolonging life, or prolonging death is a very good way to put it. There's really not much difference in putting on a non- rebreather mask and turning up the CO2, and increasing the morphine. DEATH WINS EVERYTIME no matter how much treatment one receives, but for an extra $25,000 you may hold the reaper off for another day, or two. We in this country are going to have to come to grips with this, and it has nothing to do with withholding treatment to prolong life, or suicide.

    I was more or less concerned with those who can't face life on life's terms and decided to hit the ejection seat and punch out. I was taught suicide is self murder, and as such was unforgivable and ****ing one's soul. Personally, I've always considered it the ultimate slap in the face to God. Like saying, God, I know you can't make things better for me, so I (who can't see past my nose) choose to end my life. A situation that comes to mind is committing suicide to avoid capture by an enemy in war, or avoid some other unpleasant death. I personally don't remember any scriptural references for our against my current view, perhaps someone can share some.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master UKShootist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    A situation that comes to mind is committing suicide to avoid capture by an enemy in war, or avoid some other unpleasant death. I personally don't remember any scriptural references for our against my current view, perhaps someone can share some.
    In earlier days, tank drivers were issued pistols in order to be able to shoot themselves if the tank caught fire and they were unable to get out. Some choice, although, of course, if that tank driver had not accepted Jesus as his personal saviour then, according to some, burning to death would just be a taster of what was coming for all eternity so you might just as well blow your brains out.

    http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_youngbrit.htm

    Worth reading through, but here's the last, and pertinent, part.

    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I gotta go get out my copy of Kipling's poems, love 'em. GW
    "If you can walk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with Kings, nor lose the common touch,
    Yours is the earth and everything that's in it,
    And, which is more, you'll be a man my son!" R. Kipling

    "Brother to a Prince, and fellow to a pauper, if found worthy." Kipling

  16. #16
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    Remember God will do the judging. We are not supposed to judge. If you judge you will be judged by the same measure.
    LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR

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    Boolit Master Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    I disagree with suicide. Its had its side affects in my family and at work too many times and i don't see it going away. How ever, everyone dies. Life has 100% mortality rate. If some one wants to check out early why not give them a more human option with less mess. Each persons reasons are their own. We make people sit on death row for 16 years before giving them the needle, waiting... There are terminally ill people waiting and suffering the inevitable why not let them have the same shot and go in the arms of someone that loves them.

    I don't know... what i think is my baby brother didn't mean to kill himself. He just wanted his ex-girlfriends attention. Sad part was she found him and never called the ambulance. My grandpa suffered pretty badily as his kidneys shut down and his body slowly poisoned its self. He was higher than an airplane when he finnaly went. He never lost his since of humor.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
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  18. #18
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    Personally, I think this is one of those "idjit questions" - a question without a real (mortal) answer. A man locally had worked tooth and nail for many years to build up a really good business, and found out he had a type of cancer that would be very painful and would cost a fortune to treat. Not wanting to leave his family destitute, he walked into the woods and shot himself dead. What did God do with his soul? To tell the truth, I have no idea, but He is THE just Judge, and whatever it was, he was perfect in His decision. We can't and don't see things as God sees them, so there's NO way we can really pass effective and fair judgment on others' souls.

    Passing judgment seems, I'm sorry to say, seems sometimes to be a part and parcel of my own Baptist faith, and every time I hear judgmentalism, I cringe. Well versed Catholics don't do this, and leave all such judgment up to the Lord. At least that's how they're SUPPOSED to do it. Many, of course, vary in this though. I don't quite know what it is that draws us into making judgmental statements and opinions, but whatever it is isn't really very functional. Nor is it scriptural! Judging is the realm for God and the Lord to handle. NOT us! I cannot, unfortunately, say that I've been free of "judgment," but I try hard, at least, to avoid it. Anger is usually at the root of any judgments I've made. It's a particular weakness of mine, and I keep working on it. At least I'm not what I once was. We're supposed, after all, to learn over time, aren't we?

    And if we pass our own judgment, what does it amount to anyway??? It affects nothing and no one in the least, and only identifies us as cocky enough to think our evaluations matter. They just simply don't. And I keep trying to live up to the scriptures that admonish us to refrain from judging others. It's not easy. Maybe especially in our "modern" world, so full of things that anger us. But the Lord came down from Heaven to instruct us in what REALLY matters, and what we were INTENDED to do in this realm. If we busy ourselves with that, we probably won't have any TIME for judging others.

    It does, of course, help us if we TRY to understand how to judge ourSELVES, and know when we err. Usually it's just when we react from our gutteral nature, instead of our higher sensibilities and beliefs. And it does, at least, serve some purpose to project some sort of mild and unbinding opinion about such matters. It simply helps us fit everything we've been taught together into a unified whole. But I suspect none of us really completely succeeds in doing that in this mortal world, but it's good to come as close as we can.

    So mostly, I'll pass on this question, and leave it up to the Almighty, where it rightfully belongs in the first place. Being humble enough to do that regularly is probably a very good help in our lives, and in attaining greater understanding of the Word.

  19. #19
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    Interesting; I’ve struggled with this very question for years as two of my best friends did take their own life; one was a God fearing good man; the other not a bad guy but I don’t believe he was saved? A Platoon member of mine was basically halved by a burst of automatic rifle fire; he was awake and conscious for what seemed a hell of a long time; he asked his squad leader to kill him several times; demanded really. He died of course from his wounds; he was terminal and screaming in inhuman agony; had he asked me I believe I would have done the deed for him he did not ask me he asked a dear friend and superior whom he respected; we all did. I can’t say that young squad leader was wrong in his decision not to or that I would have been right to do the deed in his place, but if you think you ever stop wondering/ replaying something like that in your head late at night; you don’t.
    I have yet to see a scripture that forbids suicide when the alternative is agony; which the sufferer will experience for the rest of their life; be that minutes hours days weeks....

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Really a tough question, and I've resisted responding several times now. But....
    The Holy Bible says that it's a sin to take one's own life, because the life was given by God.
    However, it does not say that it is an unforgiveable sin, the only sin falling into that category seeming to be "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

    Story in point: I had a friend named Jack F. who owned an ammunition reloading business. About 99% of his product was .38 Spec. wadcutters which he sold like hotcakes to those who engaged in the PPC game, and to many local police agencies for practice. Although he started small his business grew rapidly, and eventually he had one lady employee who ran the automated reloading machines while he traveled the countryside visiting law enforcement agencies and gun shops, making new customers and delivering what they ordered. But he did that only part of the time, and the rest of the time he was able to compete in PPC matches, and consistently appear on a list of distinguished shooters known as "The Governor's Twenty". I wonder if that honor even exists anymore, Jerry Brown not being too much of a shooting fan.

    He also collected Winchester lever actions, but only the most pristine of examples. So I was surprised one day when I encountered him sitting behind a table at the San Jose Gun Show, the table covered with some of his most prized Winchesters. I think I was just standing there looking at the display, and him, and trying to comprehend what was going on. Probably staring, with my mouth open. "Buy one", he said. "Jack," I replied, "I couldn't afford to even pick one of these beauties up from the table and look at it." Jack said, "No, go ahead. Make me an offer, and you might be surprised." I did neither, but asked him why he was selling his amazing collection. He told me that he had cancer and that it was terminal, and that it wouldn't be long. That was like the second sledgehammer blow between the eyes. At this point in the story my memory kind of fades a bit -- I don't know what condolences I mumbled, but I moved along down the aisle.

    A short month later a mutual friend told me that Jack had sold the ammunition business, sold all of his Winchesters, sat down in his home office and wrote out a check for everything in his bank account to his wife, and shot himself in the head with is 8 inch barreled S&W PPC revolver. The one we used to kid him was probably illegal, as it put him half-way to the target. I was young and tough, but I had a tear in my eye and a lump in my throat when I heard the news, just as I do now.

    So the story went around the profession, and most of the guys thought, as did I, that he acted with great honor. He provided for the future wellbeing of his wife, left no debts, and died by gunfire -- even if the gunfire was his own. Just like John Wayne's character in "The Shootist" he declined the option described by Jimmy Stewart, the doctor, who said something to the effect that "One morning you'll decide not to get out of bed. The Laudanum won't work anymore and the pain will be so bad you'll just scream and scream." Maybe not an exact, but a ballpark quote.

    I guess there are those who would say that he not facing the pain was cowardly, but it takes guts to pull the trigger. If you're crossing the street and see a bus bearing down on you I'm sure you'll hurry your crossing to avoid the impact. Jack just avoided the impact, although the end was the same and inevitable. Somehow I think a merciful God will forgive Jack's suicide. I'm more concerned about myself making it into the Kingdom than I am about Jack. If I do, I'm sure I'll see him there.

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